@desolutionist The format has just gotten faster and more broken. That's the consequence of adding 1000 new cards between standard, commander, and other supplemental printings to the format each year. If you print accidentally broken only 0.5% of the time, that's 5 new busted cards in the format every year. Decks max out on the best broken (like manaless dredge with 4x free spells, dredgers, bazaars, vengevines, hollow ones, etc) or play restricted highlander.dec

But there are foils to it. Decks have become so fast and streamlined, that cards like null rod, thalia, or blood moon can just wreck an opponent. If you build with hate in mind and leverage cards that mesh with the hate, you can win a lot of more grindy games.

The format looks vastly different than years past, but it's still fun. If you are of the OS mentality, you likely enjoy knowing games will last 20 minutes and get to turn 10 before someone wins. That's not vintage anymore, though many games CAN be that slow.

@desolutionist That's one of the reasons I play Legacy nowadays and have almost no interest in Vintage, except for daily skimming TMD. Legacy actually has a variety of decks and player interaction.

It's worth noting that you probably still want 0 cards in your library when you cast Thassa's Oracle, as they can still cast whatever random removal spell they have to kill the Oracle in response to the trigger, which will most likely make your devotion to blue 0.

@pilsburydohboy42 true, although maybe lavinias + teferis could add to the devotion count in a more controllish shell! But in that case you probably don't have to worry that much about removal anyway 😄

last edited by mountain-goat

@pilsburydohboy42 That's why you run Lord of Atlantis, duh.

@desolutionist I actually quit playing for a year when it was the Stax vs Slaver meta game. I hated it so much. When I think of Vintage I remember Black Vise Prosperity and the fast Academy decks being super fun. I actually like Vintage right now, just hate MTGO. I find any Magic played in paper is just more fun.

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I think if Vintage remained strictly a paper format like Old School, it would have continued to feel special. We can only hope that the format gets lost in the transition to Arena. It doesn't solve the other issues such as a critical mass of free counterspells, planeswalkers, and overpowered hatebears but it might be the best thing possible for Vintage moving forward.

I’m more excited about picking up a beta Icy Manipulator than I am for any possible new border card. The new cards are just too ugly on so many levels.

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....I have such a hard time with these arguments from privilege....

I don't want to dismiss anyone's feelings on the format but can we please keep this kind of stuff out of a spoiler thread? I'm trying to build a Doomsday deck over here and I'm getting depressed.

Would flash be good enough in doomsday with Thassa’s Oracle?

@ten-ten flashing the oracle in? it lets you pay 1U instead of UU at the downside of needing to be at 0 cards, i guess. it also gets you through a counter by making them need to counter both, but unearth does that too for less mana.

Why not just play a few of these in your Doomsday decks? Maybe even 4? It’s a fine spell on its own.

@brass-man I'm going to build a Paradigm Shift deck with this card.

@wfain said in Tassa's oracle:

Why not just play a few of these in your Doomsday decks? Maybe even 4? It’s a fine spell on its own.

Against Dredge, Shops, and DPS a resolved Doomsday is GG. Thassa makes the win slightly less conditional. (it opens up a couple of rare situations in which you wouldn’t be able to win with Lab Man) Playing more Thassa doesn’t really accomplish anything. It would be like playing 4 Tendrils in a DPS deck or 4 Blightsteel in a Tinker deck.

Doomsday struggles against decks like BUG and Xerox, which is why it’s really missing 4 Gush. You can’t play good enough card advantage spells to keep up with Planeswalkers. By using Planeswalkers or something like Arcanist to play the card advantage game, you’re having to sacrifice Doomsday components and go back to losing to Dredge/DPS/Shops for not much improvement against Xerox. Playing 4 Thassa in this situation would actually make you worse against all decks since it’s just a 1/3 with a scry ability.

By playing Doomsday you’re not playing the game WotC wants you to play and you’re bound to lose to the power creeped cards that aren’t applicable to your strategy.

Doomsday had been a deck that was good for its ability to battle toe to toe with other tier 1 blue decks. It just doesn’t have the draw power anymore to keep up. You can start with Ritual Necro or Ancestral, but the odds aren’t in favor. I’ve played Doomsday in numerous online and paper (NYSE) events in 2019. It feels like it has potential but it’s an uphill battle.

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Extra copies make Demonic Consultation a winning 2 card combo 🤷🏻♂

Is anyone looking at this and mirror of fate in modern?

Mirror of Fate 4 of this and 3 Lord of Atlantis. Ez pz. ❤

You could play mirror of fate as a win con in tron and win on turn 4 in with control. Seems pretty good.

last edited by John Cox
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