@wfain Basketball didn't have 3-point shots when it was created. Is it not the same game? I don't get this at all.

Saying this about Magic is just absurd - just take games like Gwent, that actually had complete reboots, and that actually feel like different things.

Anyway, I just thing disliking the game is OK, but it's not the game's fault. It's not like we're playing a game without expansions like...... Well.... Chess.

Change in Magic's nature since day 1.

last edited by fsecco

@fsecco
I agree. Games that don’t have static rules (like basketball and magic) evolve over time. Things change. People figure different ways of playing/winning. It’ll look different, and maybe unattractively so, to some (looking at you Houston Rockets), but they’re still dribbling an 8psi leather ball and shuffling up some lands and spells.

Basketball evolved in a good way. It’s also not really the same game as it was at the start. The 3 point line, lane expansion, and numerous other rules changes have drastically altered effective strategies.

@vaughnbros said in Vintaholics Anonymous:

Basketball evolved in a good way for my tastes.

Just corrected that for you in a way that sums up all this discussion.
Also, it is still literally the same game, it's still called Basketball, and no one will ever argue it's not (literally).
By the way, just got my Sekiro platinum last night. You should try it, it's awesome.

@vaughnbros said in Vintaholics Anonymous:

Basketball evolved in a good way. It’s also not really the same game as it was at the start. The 3 point line, lane expansion, and numerous other rules changes have drastically altered effective strategies.

Changing effective strategies does not make it a different game. You still have to pass, shoot, defend, rebound. The fundamental gameplay is the same as it has been for the past 70 years. The spaces used on the court are different and the skill-level of the players is different. The shots come from different places, but you’re still playing basketball.

This is sort of an absurd semantic argument anyway. We’re basically arguing whether a change in style, strategy, and some rules effectively turns a game into a completely new game. We’re (stupidly) debating the identity of the Ship of Theseus.

It seems like a handful of people "want a different feeling" for the format they grew up on, and time has passed them by as new, exciting, and powerful printings have changed the format. This isn't much different than those who grew up on ABU and then saw the printings of Urza's block and then Mirrodin block radically reshape the format (adjusted for those eras). The thing unique about Vintage is that it is specifically dedicated to be the eternal resting home for the hideous design mistakes of Magic past and present, even if we seek some semblance of balance every now and then. It is supposed to be wild and ever-changing.

If you are looking for a different feeling, I don't really recommend ditching Vintage per se, but also take a look at diving in to some of the other retro formats out there that people are playing. I have been playing a good amount of Middle School, and there are other formats like PreModern or HyperExtended that are similar (also unpowered and much cheaper than Vintage and Legacy). If you are searching for something that is akin to 2000-2003 era Vintage, there is also a format known as Classic that you might find fun (1993-2003, pre-Mirrodin, fully powered). There is no shortage of player created throwback formats out there to capture a different nostalgia, and they are fun to mix in to your arsenal so nothing ever gets stale.

@jaco said in Vintaholics Anonymous:

The thing unique about Vintage is that it is specifically dedicated to be the eternal resting home for the hideous design mistakes of Magic past and present, even if we seek some semblance of balance every now and then. It is supposed to be wild and ever-changing.

Yup. One of the most interesting things Vintage does for me is seeing cards that were originally rarely played when released becoming bombs now that they interact with a card considered unplayable in a new set. A perfect example for me was what happened to flash when newer creatures came out. I've had a playset of them since Mirage as I bought a bunch of it when it came out. They just sat in my binder.

@dstinct said in Vintaholics Anonymous:

Yup. One of the most interesting things Vintage does for me is seeing cards that were originally rarely played when released becoming bombs now that they interact with a card considered unplayable in a new set. A perfect example for me was what happened to flash when newer creatures came out. I've had a playset of them since Mirage as I bought a bunch of it when it came out. They just sat in my binder.

Good sentiment, bad example. Flash was reworded in May 2007 to break it just in time for a Legacy Grand Prix in Columbus. The two main creatures that helped to break it, Academy Rector and Protean Hulk, were printed in February 1999 and May 2006 respectively.

Old school is more my pace these days. I prefer the less competitive approach, more stylistic and nostalgic cards, and the idea that I don’t have to continuously play test new cards. There are already so many new cards that I haven’t even read.

There are not many convenient players For old school but that actually works well! I can focus all of my free time on family and business. And those events that do come up a couple times a year feel more precious.

I don’t really feel the competitive desire to even attempt vintage lately. I tried out Starcraft 2, and I was terrible at it. I was trying to at least be good in some capacity, but if I made some small error at the beginning the game was over. To play Vintage online, I feel like I have to be like that Starcraft player and never make a mistake and continuously practice. It’s a huge time investment for what feels like a coin flip in a lot of situations.

@desolutionist It seems to me that your beef with Vintage is more a change in your perspective in life overall. If you're looking forward to spending more of your free time on family and business and only occasionally playing magic, then the game as a whole is likely becoming a lower priority to things that matter more in the grand scheme.

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