Time to run Helix Pinacle or too slow?

@serracollector With infinite mana, you want to kill on the spot. If they have a counter, the opponent is going to counter Zirda, not the kill condition. If they have removal, it doesn't matter, so shroud doesn't help here. This is also vulnerable to Force of Negation, whereas Ballista and Spawnsire are not.

@blindtherapy said in [IKO] Zirda, the Dawnwaker:

eldrazi stuff seems very cute, but is it better than walking ballista or another X spell that doesn't need multiple sideboard slots to complete? either it or spawnsire need to resolve to work; i think playing emrakul the aeons torn maindeck is safer than spawnsire, as the payoff spell itself is uncounterable.

Time to start running Sudden Shock to deal with Zidra? I feel like most of these lists so far are relying on the fact that if you land Zidra you can win through removal and have no way to bring her back, so split second removal can really mess up that plan. Shock has a lot of utility outside of Zidra as well, as it is a great way to deal with a mentor with its first trigger on the stack or random planeswalkers with 2 or fewer counters on them.

Then again, unearth can just pull her back so maybe that merits a slot?

@Protoaddict Zirda is 3/3, so unless you have double sudden shock I’m not sure that plan is going to be sufficient.

Crap, the pic I was looking at was much lower quality, looked like a 2. Well there goes that good idea.

Is it time we start discussing as a community how the restricted list can no longer save the format from being degenerate and only delay the inevitable need for a fundamental format change like moving to singleton or 80 card decks or something? We now have basically have two different 1 card "I win" combos in the format because one card is in the board and cannot be interacted with prior to going off:

Karn into Lattice
Zirda into Monolith(s)

We also have a few cards that are also virtually 1 card win combos including the recently restricted Mystic Forge

Both combos play really well with each other and can have turn 1 wins, and play well with a lot of other cards that are traditionally broken but only in limited scenarios like channel. In both cases the restricted list did not stop the combo, just the frequency. At what point do we send up the warning flare.

I would also mention that the way Zidra is slotting into the format right now is the same way that Lutri was fitting into EDH (basically free for any deck that had the colors with no restriction) and also the reason he was preemptively banned.

@protoaddict I don't think we need that discussion because of what your solutions are, which are the only solutions there could be. It's not "how do we save vintage" as much as "let's scrap Vintage as a format altogether and just play highlander." A fundamental change of that magnitude is basically just saying "let's play a whole new format that allows older cards." We already have Old School if you want that. If you want to avoid the degenerate broken, we have Modern, Pioneer, etc. If you want a format that allows all the old cards, but still uses all the new cards, and has no broken power issues...well, I want a mansion, yacht, and a Ferrari.

I think we'll have to see how problematic Zirda really becomes. I suspect that it will be a big issue as the consistency rate of the deck I posted is phenomenally stupid. You could always restrict grim monolith again, and then it does lose some consistency and speed. You could restrict basalt monolith too, and now you've nerfed the deck considerably. Alternately, you could print a split-second lightning bolt - maybe costs 1RR and the red is phyrexian mana - so it's like a dismember cost. I think in the mean time, if the deck really takes off, then you have humans running up to 12 null rods and other disruptive elements. Maybe they print a card that says "Spells may only be cast from a player's hand."

There are many options to fix issues made by new printings without nuking the format and making everyone play EDH instead.

@protoaddict i think zirda is noticably different from karn as a combo card(ignoring all the other things karn does). karn is effectively a modal card with its wish function, while zirda is just there.

I don't think Zirda compares to (EDH)Lutri. the big problem with Lutri is that it had no real deckbuilding restriction; Zirda stops people from putting mentor, defense grid, and other cards in their deck, and takes up slots in the maindeck for the combo in a way that Lutri would not have in EDH.

Here are a list of cards I have seen people play a game of Vintage with, which can be cast off of a Cavern of Souls naming Fox or Elemental, and have an activated ability.

Nivmagus Elemental

Okay I didn't say I saw anyone win a game of Vintage with them.

@brass-man you forgot chameleon colossus and mirror entity

@brass-man said in [IKO] Zirda, the Dawnwaker:

Here are a list of cards I have seen people play a game of Vintage with, which can be cast off of a Cavern of Souls naming Fox or Elemental, and have an activated ability.

Nivmagus Elemental

Okay I didn't say I saw anyone win a game of Vintage with them.

This is not the list for it but NivMagus Elemental is a perfectly cromulent card in many eternal format. It would never surprise me to see that in a top 8 list.

Ingot Chewer and Wispmare have won many games as elementals off of Cavern.

@vaughnbros yes, but neither has an activated ability

Updated list:

// V_1_Monolith Combo

// 61 Maindeck
// 23 Artifact
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Mox Opal
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Time Vault
2 Manifold Key
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Memory Jar
1 Sensei's Divining Top

// 4 Creature
2 Walking Ballista
1 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 Spawnsire of Ulamog

// 10 Instant
2 Paradoxical Outcome
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Stroke of Genius

// 13 Land
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
1 Island
4 Tundra
2 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn

// 4 Planeswalker
1 Karn, the Great Creator
3 Teferi, Time Raveler

// 7 Sorcery
1 Channel
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Ponder
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Timetwister
1 Gitaxian Probe

// 15 Sideboard
// 1 Artifact
SB: 1 Mycosynth Lattice

// 4 Creature
SB: 1 Zirda, the Dawnwaker
SB: 1 Walking Ballista
SB: 1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

// 5 Instant
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 4 Orim's Chant

// 4 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Narset, Parter of Veils
SB: 3 Oko, Thief of Crowns

// 1 Sorcery
SB: 1 Balance

Turns out, 8x monolith is really more than you need. You almost always get one in your top 7, or can mull into it, and running 1 more doesn't add enough to the % to justify losing a spell slot. I've been happy with 7.

Urza got cut for Ballista #2...the UU is often too hard to get the same turn as WW, but the infinite colorless needs sinks.

I decided to try orim's chants in the SB as extra combo protection. Force of Vigor hurts, and the pitch-bazaar decks run far too many counters/vigors main to rely on FoW alone. Teferi helps, but it rarely lives a turn vs hollowvine decks, and you need the 1WU + WW in the same turn for that to matter. Chant helps.

Oko in the side helps kill rods/ouphes. Rod decks really hurt, and you need to permanently remove them, not just bounce them for 1 turn a lot of times. BUG is tough, though not the end of the world. I've found Hollowvine to actually be the toughest match with 12 pitch spells and a fast clock. I added sphinx as a tinker target, because, although you can't use Zirda as a companion then, you can SB in Okos, Sphinx, Zirda, etc., and have a better chance of winning with Sphinx in play. BUG/BUGr and hollowvine have a very tough time vs Sphinx.

I cut misstep, which may be a mistake, but stopping the opponent is less important than protecting the win, since you are usually faster and misstep doesn't stop null rod/ouphe anyway.

The deck still needs work, but is still being pretty consistent and degenerate. Zirda is still insane, if you can land him. Any thoughts?

last edited by Thewhitedragon69
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