What could replace the fetches/duals as a default mana base

Just play your indestructible Triomes, and make sure you have room for Soldier of Fortune 😉

A cycle like this might compete with true duals. It would give everyone access to more duals, but you likely could get by without the originals.

Trick Land
Swamp Island Plains
As Trick Land enters the battlefield choose Black Blue or White. For the rest of the game if a land you control would produce the chosen color, it produces colorless instead.

For example, if I’m a UB deck, I can play the WUB Trick Lands and the RBU trick lands for 8 copies. Furthermore, it evens the utility of fetch lands since off color ones can fetch more trick land types. This would make mana base construction much more affordable.

It’s drawback is also natural insurance against color pie bleeding. It makes constructing 2 color a decks considerably cheaper, but not as much for 3+ colors.

last edited by bactgudz

Fetches and Duals are much more powerful than most seem to realize here:

  1. They can easily fix a 4-color manabase in a non-waste environment, a 3-color one that is waste resistant, or a 2-color one that is completely waste immune. You can even sideboard in and out of those configurations so it can vary game to game.

  2. There are lands, like Sanctuary and Dryad Arbor, that give benefits beyond just adding mana that can and usually are played with them.

  3. The actually ability of sac shuffle effect and deck thinning is a legitimate factor in their power level when you consider synergy with other cards, like DRS, Crucible/Loam, Brainstorm, and even random less played cards like Hermit Druid.

Overcoming the power level of these 3 factors would take some ridiculously powerful lands. The kinds of lands they haven’t printed since like Urza’s block.

@thewhitedragon69

Shops doesn’t use fetches. Seems to be okay not bending their mana base around Brainstorm.

I think the shuffle effect is overvalued. If you can just cast a large stroke of genius with all your indestructible mana sources, that would be a much better payoff than shuffling every turn and then losing your lands to Strip Mine.

In the above example someone mentioned playing 9 fetch and 6 duals. So at most you can produce only 6 mana when all of your Strip-vulnerable lands in play. That’s certainly a disadvantage and a long shot for casting any bomb spells like Stroke. In comparison the indestructible triomes guy can produce 15 mana when all of his lands are in play. That’s an advantage that isn’t really being considered here. it just enables more and different cards/strategies to be played. Not everything needs to fit the Xerox mold.

last edited by LieNielsen

@vaughnbros said in What could replace the fetches/duals as a default mana base:

Overcoming the power level of these 3 factors would take some ridiculously powerful lands. The kinds of lands they haven’t printed since like Urza’s block.

broadly agree with the post, but this bit is wrong. worldwake/rise of the eldrazi saw the printing of a set of lands that were sufficiently powerful to later see play when the spells to match them were printed, though earlier lands were also part of that manabase.

@lienielsen said in What could replace the fetches/duals as a default mana base:

Shops doesn’t use fetches. Seems to be okay not bending their mana base around Brainstorm.

This is a false dichotomy, and also my OP mentioned the fact that we are specifically talking about colored mana production. Between Shops, Dredge, and Drazi lands we know there are other land system archetypes for colorless and manaless builds, but since colored mana casting spells style decks are by far the largest subsection of decks in magic you would think there would be more viable core mana bases to play with, but there are not.

I think duals are the easier one to solve by far since they are already disadvantaged because of wastelands which causes people to play basics. Fetches in my mind are basically the thing that breaks most formats and the biggest mistake WOTC ever made, because they also shore up the weaknesses to the duals.

There have been plenty of supplemental lands seen in fetch mana bases (Mystic Sanctuary, Cavern of souls, the occasional Horizon canopy) but nothing has even come close to threatening the core of the fetch base, and nothing has aggressively hated on fetches enough to make people reconsider using them even though we have cards that literally shut them down like Opposition agent, Ashiok Dream Render, spyglass, and Aven Mindcensor which in vintage can be turn 1 plays.

@lienielsen But:

  1. Xerox is a large part of the meta, and perhaps the most popular Vintage deck.
  2. Who the heck is casting stroke?
  3. Who is getting to a game where they have 15 lands?
  4. Shops/Bazaar are totally different mana bases and deck construction. If the thread was about "how can I play magic without fetches/duals," then that's been answered since dredge/shops. The post is about what can replace fetches and duals (presumably in the decks that play them) - and the answer seems to be none, or something so ridiculous that WotC would be crazy to print them.

@BlindTherapy

The strength of Fetch and Dual is that they are most flexible. The strength of Workshop is it taps for the most mana (and is still more flexible than Eldrazi lands). The strength of Bazaar is you need no other lands.

Eldrazi lands, even in an Eldrazi deck, are clearly 2nd tier to Workshop in an artifact deck.

I’d say Cavern of Souls is the closest printing to making a new niche, but it’s limited by the lack of great complements. You usually end up back into fetches or picking from subpar lands (like Eldrazi).

Magic mana sources are simply stuck where they are. Perhaps forever since they decided to change the entire power level of the card type about 20 years ago.

last edited by vaughnbros

@vaughnbros said in What could replace the fetches/duals as a default mana base:

I’d say Cavern of Souls is the closest printing to making a new niche, but it’s limited by the lack of great complements. You usually end up back into fetches or picking from subpar lands (like Eldrazi).

The difference between Cavern and those other examples is that caverns powerlevel is largely based on what your opponent can do to you. Caverns against decks with no counter magic is basically an Ancient Ziggurat, and sometimes it is the non basic land in a mono colored deck.

The other land bases have benefit regardless of what your opponent does, not contingent upon them. Workshops always produces 3 mana, Bazaar always draws and discards. They fluxuate in power far less than other lands can due to meta shifts.

@vaughnbros said in What could replace the fetches/duals as a default mana base:

Magic mana sources are simply stuck where they are. Perhaps forever since they decided to change the entire power level of the card type about 20 years ago.

So the question I would pose to you, is if you believe we are kinda at peak power with the land base short of them introducing a new color into the game, and that the current land base is so restrictive to design space that they basically cannot make something even parallel in that space if not better, then is there validity in thinking about restriction to weaken the strategy, however minor it may be? Presumably there will come a point where it becomes a detriment to the format, and not from a cost perspective but rather from a staleness one, and it would need to have some sort of remedy to keep the format alive.

@protoaddict

Fetches and duals 100% should be restricted.

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