@desolutionist said in MTGO 2020:

There’s just a lot going on so it’s understandable if people aren’t talking about MTG all that much. Especially since we can’t really play outside of online platforms.

The rest of your post was very well written, but it sounds like you found a bubble that doesn't talk about Magic much. You used to have a Twitter account before Lawrence Harmon clowned you, so choosing to leave Legacy/Vintage discourse and claim it's dwindling is more of a symptom of your own internet usage and not how the community as a whole has acted.

@80percentbuffoon

I prefer to use TMD. No one on TMD is going to “retweet” something I write attached with memes, with the intent of putting me down. That’s childish. There’s a lot of negativity on Twitter and it just doesn’t vibe with how I want to spend my time.

@desolutionist said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon

I prefer to use TMD. No one on TMD is going to “retweet” something I write attached with memes, with the intent of putting me down. That’s childish. There’s a lot of negativity on Twitter and it just doesn’t vibe with how I want to spend my time.

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@80percentbuffoon
You say that, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average Vintage player was a Boomer. A lot of us have been playing for 20+ years and weren't kids when magic started.

@john-cox said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon
You say that, but I wouldn't be surprised if the average Vintage player was a Boomer. A lot of us have been playing for 20+ years and weren't kids when magic started.

There's a competitive team of about half a dozen 14-17 year olds that play Vintage on MTGO that's really bringing down the average. Jacobisboss, a 14 year old, was on track to win an invite to the PT through the Showcase Challenge due to his high performance. Together they have arguably the best results in the format right now.

Plus, to nitpick, you said Vintage players. @Brass-Man already concluded that this forum is mostly ex-players that don't get averaged in.

@80percentbuffoon I'd have to think if we are saying 6 players constitute the bulk of "current Vintage players," then Vintage is in a far worse shape than I ever imagined. Paper Vintage players count too, even if their matches and results aren't on Twitch for the world to watch.

@thewhitedragon69 said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon I'd have to think if we are saying 6 players constitute the bulk of "current Vintage players," then Vintage is in a far worse shape than I ever imagined. Paper Vintage players count too, even if their matches and results aren't on Twitch for the world to watch.

Just because some of today's top tier players weren't alive the last time you put up a meaningful result doesn't mean that Vintage is dying.

@80percentbuffoon It had more to do with the number than age. You said half a dozen people were really bringing down the average age. When 6 people can really affect the average of any demographic, that means the scene as a whole is miniscule. If there were a 1000 Vintage players worldwide, 6 people would hardly budge the needle. If 6 people aged 14-17 are dragging the age down from 40 (like myself and most vintage players I know) to closer to <20, that means there's about 10 Vintage players in the world. I feel honored to personally know the other 4 vintage players on Earth, in that case.

@thewhitedragon69 said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon It had more to do with the number than age. You said half a dozen people were really bringing down the average age. When 6 people can really affect the average of any demographic, that means the scene as a whole is miniscule. If there were a 1000 Vintage players worldwide, 6 people would hardly budge the needle. If 6 people aged 14-17 are dragging the age down from 40 (like myself and most vintage players I know) to closer to <20, that means there's about 10 Vintage players in the world. I feel honored to personally know the other 4 vintage players on Earth, in that case.

You're trying to drag my non-mathematical anecdote about the existence of young Vintage players through the mud to prove an incorrect hypothesis about the health of the game you don't play.

@80percentbuffoon I'm trying to point out the fallacy of suggesting 6 young players constitute any bulk of relevant Vintage opinion. They are but a small number of a larger base. I also don't understand the insistence that the only players/results that matter are the current MTGO numbers - and you're not the only, though an egregious, proponent of that thought. There are many paper players that have local metagames. But since Vintage players worldwide of an older age own the cards and prefer to meet with people we enjoy, our metagames/Vintage-related opinions are somehow irrelevant to the 60ish online players on MTGO?

I understand that this generation has never grown up without social media or instant data, but the whole instant gratification/"what have you done lately"/"24-hours ago is old news" viewpoint just amazes me in a not-good way. Just because you or the twitch streamers don't see all the Vintage played around the world doesn't mean all Vintage that isn't on camera and for-your-viewing-in-a-click doesn't matter or is less meaningful.

@thewhitedragon69 said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon I'm trying to point out the fallacy of suggesting 6 young players constitute any bulk of relevant Vintage opinion. They are but a small number of a larger base. I also don't understand the insistence that the only players/results that matter are the current MTGO numbers - and you're not the only, though an egregious, proponent of that thought. There are many paper players that have local metagames. But since Vintage players worldwide of an older age own the cards and prefer to meet with people we enjoy, our metagames/Vintage-related opinions are somehow irrelevant to the 60ish online players on MTGO?

I understand that this generation has never grown up without social media or instant data, but the whole instant gratification/"what have you done lately"/"24-hours ago is old news" viewpoint just amazes me in a not-good way. Just because you or the twitch streamers don't see all the Vintage played around the world doesn't mean all Vintage that isn't on camera and for-your-viewing-in-a-click doesn't matter or is less meaningful.

I find MTGO more relevant than most paper events as a mid-30s power owner.

@80percentbuffoon If you only plan to play on MTGO, I suppose it is - that's your meta. But other than metagaming, thinking the card opinions, deck designs, spoiler theory, etc., of the few dozen people that make up the MTGO top players is all that matters is narrow and flawed. It's akin to saying, "yeah, there's a whole world of newspapers, reporters, data banks, etc. out there - but my facebook chatgroup is the only one that matters to me and their opinion trumps all the rest of the world's understanding."

@thewhitedragon69 said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon If you only plan to play on MTGO, I suppose it is - that's your meta. But other than metagaming, thinking the card opinions, deck designs, spoiler theory, etc., of the few dozen people that make up the MTGO top players is all that matters is narrow and flawed. It's akin to saying, "yeah, there's a whole world of newspapers, reporters, data banks, etc. out there - but my facebook chatgroup is the only one that matters to me and their opinion trumps all the rest of the world's understanding."

I can't read newspapers that aren't published.

@80percentbuffoon TheManaDrain is published opinion. Thinking only the MTGO voices are the ones that matter when TMD brings opinions of experienced paper players is flawed thinking, imo. If you want to narrow your thoughts on Vintage to the opinions of the MTGO pros, by all means, have at it.

** This all got far diverged from the original post. We can take this to PM if you want to continue convincing me that a half dozen teenagers should be my main focus for Vintage thought 😉

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69 said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon TheManaDrain is published opinion. Thinking only the MTGO voices are the ones that matter when TMD brings opinions of experienced paper players is flawed thinking, imo. If you want to narrow your thoughts on Vintage to the opinions of the MTGO pros, by all means, have at it.

** This all got far diverged from the original post. We can take this to PM if you want to continue convincing me that a half dozen teenagers should be my main focus for Vintage thought 😉

Good point. I guess I'll delete now.

@brass-man said in MTGO 2020:

@80percentbuffoon said in MTGO 2020:

Unfortunately this forum caters primarily to paper players so the above paper bias in the responses is expected.

Obviously obviously I have to respond to this, though I hope I don't sound bratty or defensive.

TMD does not explicitly cater to paper players in the sense that I have taken zero active steps to provide anything specifically for paper players. I genuinely have no idea what part of the site could be considered paper-centric, maybe the Tournament Announcement forum that nobody's posted in for months?

I think you'll find that paper players don't really use TMD either. There aren't many living paper communities out there any more, and there tends to be a pretty big overlap between people who don't like playing online and people who don't like internet forums, for obvious reasons. If I try to pin down what I see as "the paper community", I think of places like the New York metagame that until recently ran regular large events. Players who play at an astounding level and just have no interest in an online forum. I don't think Joe Brennan even has a TMD account. I think the majority of active TMD posters (myself included) are _ex_paper players. People who used to go to tournaments regularly and for whatever reason no longer can, who drop by now and then to brainstorm some new spoiled card just to exercise their Vintage muscles. Then we recede back into our neighborhoods where there just aren't any paper Vintage tournaments to go to anymore.

I've tried catering to paper players. I've also tried catering to MTGO players. I ask people what it would take for them to use TMD more. I ask people that a lot. I'm guessing a lot of people I know are sick of me asking them. I almost never get an answer beyond "ban ____, I don't like them" and "I don't go there because no one goes there".

The fact is, people don't want to talk about Vintage on a forum. I keep it running out of a sense of obligation, and because I can afford to, but it's just not something people are passionate about enough to contribute to.

If could think of a way to cater to paper players, I'd do it in a heartbeat. If I could think of a way to cater to MTGO players, I'd do that instead.

I know this all sounds kind of defensive, and maybe it is, somewhat ... I do feel bad when people dislike the site ... but more than that, I don't think you would have said that if you didn't feel like you were somehow being excluded ... and I don't want people to feel like they're being pushed out of the site when I've been so desperately trying to make people feel like they can participate (a fact that some people have told me is the biggest problem with TMD).

I wish I could lay out some action plan I have for fixing any issues you have with the site, but I think I'm all tapped out.

Brass Man or Mr.Probasco whitch ever you prefer I want to make it very clear to you that you are doing gods work. I learned about vintage through the vintage super league and as a result have started to play. I lack the financial means to play in paper or even go to tournaments, but I have played vintage on xmage and tabletop with friends I am trying to bring into the format. I enjoy this and I would go so far as to say vintage is my favorite way to play magic. This would not have been possible without 2 things. Your website and MTGTOP8. I go there for decks and come here for understanding. I have spent hours trawling the archives and reading and just recently chose to make an account so I could participate first hand. Don’t, please don’t, believe that you are screaming into the void. The work you do matters, it may not to anyone else but it has mattered a lot to me and I want to thank you for keeping this cite open and running for as long as you have.

P.S. Mabye get aversion of dredge with less than 4 grave trolls for the front page.

@botvinik said in MTGO 2020:

P.S. Mabye get aversion of dredge with less than 4 grave trolls for the front page.

Okay, fair point.

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