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big upgrade on eidolon of rhetoric/big thalia

It's a good card, but not a strict upgrade. The extra power and added evasion is better than eidolon, but the 3 toughness puts it in bolt range. The flying and "rule of law" effect is a boost over thalia 2.0, but the loss of first strike and +1 power and the fact that creatures don't enter tapped makes this much worse in aggro matches. I'd rather Thalia 2.0 vs humans all day than this, for example.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

Wow, this is a great card! I'm really looking forward to testing this and see how it fits into various hatebear shells and if it can take some of the slots of Thalia 2.0 and Deafening Silence.

Though I gotta say that from a design perspective, I'm not a big fan of this card. The two effects don't really make that much sense together and it seems a bit lazy to just jam two already known effects onto one card. Why not make the first ability something like "Lands can't enter the battlefield from anywhere other than players' hands" - or if they really wanted to use effects we already know, the Ankh of Mishra effect would fit better here.

last edited by Griselbrother

@thewhitedragon69 said in [ZRN] Archon of Emeria:

It's a good card, but not a strict upgrade. The extra power and added evasion is better than eidolon, but the 3 toughness puts it in bolt range. The flying and "rule of law" effect is a boost over thalia 2.0, but the loss of first strike and +1 power and the fact that creatures don't enter tapped makes this much worse in aggro matches. I'd rather Thalia 2.0 vs humans all day than this, for example.

Also not a human is a big hit for a deck that uses cavern of souls.

I've been testing this card a bit in my GWB Knight Human Shell and I can tell you that it not being a human is NOT a big deal. I also like to run 3 Grand Abolisher in my list and that helps resolve this bomb. This card is absurd. It does so many things in modern Vintage. PM me if you'd like to see what I've been doing with it.

Best,

Storm

@stormanimagus I always enjoy your lists. I don't see this as an upgrade to thalia 2.0, but a great compliment to it. It IS an upgrade to eidolon outside of eating it to bolt.

It's absolutely an upgrade to Thalia 2.0 because it combines the best ability from Thalia 2.0 with the Eidolon ability. They tacked on Flyer so you could actually grind your opponent's life total down while they sit on nigh zero board development. Trust me, this card is light years past a Thalia 2.0. Not being a Human is not that big a deal for the upside you are getting. I also run 3 Grand Abolisher in my lists so it is still often uncounterable (teehee).

It is probably better in the more human lists amusingly. The little bit of testing that I have done on it says that is is not great for white eldrazi as not being able to be cast off cavern actually stresses the deck’s mana base. Solid card overall but for eldrazi human mixes I think it may be best to stick to only two types.

My list plays 21 colorless sources(counting caverns and 4 of the moxen) so if you play less your result may be different.

last edited by Botvinik

@stormanimagus The first strike and creatures entering tapped have always been big upsides to thalia to me. Killing vengevines and making them enter tapped (in addition to Hogaak enablers entering tapped) adds valuable time. It speeds your clock too, since their blocker will always be unable to block the turn played.

Vs humans, for example, Thalia 2.0 seems better than eidolon/archon. In general, I'm sure archon is broader, but it's not a strict upgrade in all cases.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

How about Vengevines never entering the battlefield in the first place because your opponent is limited to 1 spell per turn lol? I think it isn't even close. This card trumps Thalia 2.0 in every way that matters to me in Vintage at the moment. Hogaak-Vine isn't the only list you need to worry about anyway. This card is far more deadly vs. any Breach Deck, for example.

@stormanimagus Against creatureless decks, mentor decks, etc., this guy is far better than Thalia - but in that case, Eidolon alone is clearly better than thalia. I'm just saying Thalia 2.0 isn't completely worse than archon in all matchups. I like them together, not one over the other, in lots of cases.

To me, a strict upgrade is something like a 2U sorcery getting reprinted as a 2U instant with the exact same text. These cards have some tradeoffs if you pick one over the other.

I understand what you're saying, but the maindeckability of this card is far better because it still does things vs. the Bazaar decks while being leaps and bounds better vs. blue.

Dragon is correct under the standard definition of strictly better you must have all of the same upsides with either additional purely positive abilities or better stats. For example if tomorrow they printed a Thalia guardian of Thraben that did not have first strike but was a 7/7 it would not be strictly better. It would be vastly better yes but strictly better is like ancestral vs jace’s ingenuity not like necropotence v greed.

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