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Seems good with the usual suspects like timewalk. The kicker is going to be like 1 in a 100 games but it's hard to believe you would lose if you hit it. It feels like it may be better than a fork effect because you can potentially bait a counter with this before you now what they want to follow up with.

I was just about to post this. It looks like a great card. The clear downside from snapcaster is this doesn't have flash, so you can't do tricks or cast things > 2 cmc. But this also can't be disrupted by grave hate, and the opponent can't respond to this resolving before you cast your spell and get a copy. It forces them to counter the 2/1 and let the spell resolve, or counter just 1 copy of the spell (or have double FoW or flusterstorm). I see ancestral, ponder, brainstorm (with a fetch crack between copies), demonic tutor, time walk, merch scroll as the main abusers - and push/bolt/plow vs aggro matches being a brutal use. Interestingly, you can cast this guy, then attack with a dreadhorde and copy what DA recasts from the bin.

In a Lurrus deck, this would have been nuts and a half, but the cat is dead, so at least we dodged that.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

In addition to everything else that's been mentioned, I love the pressure this puts on your opponent if you lead on something like "Land, Mox, Stormcaller". Can they really afford to not counter it if they have one? Maybe you're bluffing, maybe you're not, but if you're not it's really just game over on the spot.

@revengeanceful I dunno if that works so great because it is "this turn." If you play land, mox, stormcaster...pass, that's terrible. unless you are following up with lotus or sapphire, you're likely not casting anything the opponent cares about anyway in that same turn.

@thewhitedragon69 said in [ZRN] Sea Gate Stormcaller:

@revengeanceful I dunno if that works so great because it is "this turn." If you play land, mox, stormcaster...pass, that's terrible. unless you are following up with lotus or sapphire, you're likely not casting anything the opponent cares about anyway in that same turn.

That is the scenario I was thinking. It’s clearly a risky scenario because if you don’t have Sapphire or Lotus to follow it up with it’s terrible as you pointed out, but you wouldn’t take that line unless you had the follow up...or would you? That’s the mind game I enjoy about it.

@revengeanceful I think it just becomes a spell that gets countered whether you are bluffing or not, and it is really bad if you are bluffing.

  • If you cast this and they do or don't counter and you follow up with nothing, you basically lost your ability to get a free copy of anything and at best just have a 2/1.

  • If you cast this and they counter it, you can follow up with a good spell, but you won't get your copy - so they essentially counter one of the 2 copies that would have been.

  • If you cast this and they don't counter, you follow up with your spell and automatically get a copy. They can use that counter they held to counter ONE of those copies, but you still resolve one copy and get a 2/1 to boot.

Given those three scenarios, I don't know how much bluffing there is. The right call is to ALWAYS counter stormcaller if you are able to, I think, when you have just 3 mana open. If you have 2 mana only and cast this, I'll take my chances that you have no lotus/sapphire follow up and you just wasted your opportunity cost on a vanilla 2/1.

The tricky situation is more when you have 4-5 mana up and cast this. My decision then is "do you have ancestral or walk or something solid that one copy will resolve no matter what I do - or are you baiting my counter with this so you can follow with Tinker, that would not have been copied, and I'd much rather counter?" I think given a 4-5 mana open scenario, I let this resolve (it's just a 2/1) and counter one of the copies of the following spell (the best I could hope to do regardless of stormaller resolving), guarding against that spell being a 3+ cmc bomb.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69 said in [ZRN] Sea Gate Stormcaller:

@revengeanceful I think it just becomes a spell that gets countered whether you are bluffing or not

I guess we’ll have to wait and see!

Flusterstorm can counter both copies. So can MB Trap.

Theres got to be something cute you can do with this and rite of replication or some similar spell.

Even just playing this with a Preordain is really solid.

@desolutionist Yeah, this is a very solid card. Baiting with just 2 mana seems like a not good play, but casting this when you have 3 or 4 mana open seems like a no-lose profit.

@vaughnbros Flusterstorm can counter both copies, but not the 2/1, so it's still some value. Flusterstorm would counter the original spell anyway, so it's not any better or worse. Mindbreak trap does not get turned on by this, because you make a copy of the instant/sorcery cast - you don't actually cast it, so the "three cast spells" clause doesn't turn on (unless you dropped a mox or something to speed this play out).

@thewhitedragon69 said in [ZRN] Sea Gate Stormcaller:

Flusterstorm can counter both copies, but not the 2/1, so it's still some value.

not really? you played a 2/1 for 2 mana, and flusterstorm traded with whatever spell was cast. putting goblin piker in your deck is not value.

@blindtherapy The key word being SOME. Minimal for sure, but if you are going to lose the spell you cast to flusterstorm no matter what, it's better to have a 2/1 than nothing, right?

@thewhitedragon69 it's a 1 for 1. the 2/1 cost you a card. when snapcaster gives you value, it's because you spent a card, got a 2/1, then your opponent traded a card for the thing you flashed back. when you cast this and then cast a spell to have both copies of that spell hit with a fluster or trap, you did not get any value out of this; you spent 2 cards and got a 2/1 while your opponent spent 1 card.
maybe this card is playable, but if your opponent has flusterstorm you're probably better off not playing this card and instead using that 2 mana to pay for flusterstorm on the single copy of the spell you're casting than trading your great spell for flusterstorm and playing a goblin piker.

@blindtherapy

You could make it more than a Goblin Piker by having some blink or bounce effects to reuse its ability.

What I like about this card is you could play 4 and build around it. Kind of like Dreadhorde Arcanist. You wouldn’t really want to play 4 Snapcaster deck.

@blindtherapy I appreciate the devil's advocate. True, if the opp has flusterstorm, you could pay the 2 mana for the FS instead of on stormcaller. But, that's likely a much less likelihood than the times the opp has FoW or FoN or REB or nothing and you get value out of this guy with the copy. Again, mindbreak doesn't trigger off the copy, only when you CAST a 3rd spell. So unless they are hardcasting mindbreak, you have no worries there - and if they are hardcasting, your original spell had no chance anyway, and at least you end up with a 2/1 as opposed to nothing. Granted, that 2/1 could have been Preordain #4 or something, but the ability to double your time walk or ancestral or ponder makes this a better option imo.

@desolutionist Agreed. This is a slower snapcaster that is immune to grave hate. The spell you would flashback with snappy has the same weaknesses as the spell you'd copy with stormcaller - in 99% of cases you will get at least 1 use of the instant/sorcery through a conterspell. But this is not bad in duplicates and allows you to get more value from singleton snappy or arcanist since you don't exile the spell you copy. Perhaps MOST important to me is that you completely dodge grave hate, which is 50% of all SBs and often maindecked in some number given the prevalence of hollowvine and dredge variants.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69 said in [ZRN] Sea Gate Stormcaller:

@blindtherapy I appreciate the devil's advocate. True, if the opp has flusterstorm, you could pay the 2 mana for the FS instead of on stormcaller. But, that's likely a much less likelihood than the times the opp has FoW or FoN or REB or nothing and you get value out of this guy with the copy. Again, mindbreak doesn't trigger off the copy, only when you CAST a 3rd spell. So unless they are hardcasting mindbreak, you have no worries there - and if they are hardcasting, your original spell had no chance anyway, and at least you end up with a 2/1 as opposed to nothing. Granted, that 2/1 could have been Preordain #4 or something, but the ability to double your time walk or ancestral or ponder makes this a better option imo.

@desolutionist Agreed. This is a slower snapcaster that is immune to grave hate. The spell you would flashback with snappy has the same weaknesses as the spell you'd copy with stormcaller - in 99% of cases you will get at least 1 use of the instant/sorcery through a conterspell. But this is not bad in duplicates and allows you to get more value from singleton snappy or arcanist since you don't exile the spell you copy. Perhaps MOST important to me is that you completely dodge grave hate, which is 50% of all SBs and often maindecked in some number given the prevalence of hollowvine and dredge variants.

Where this is better than snapcaster is that you get the bonus spell for free. That IMO is the draw to this over snapcaster.

How many copies of Fluster do people run now days. I would say it is very likely worth the gamble in some hands to go for it and see if they have it.

Likewise, late game this can be super strong if your opponent has grinded out a lot of his counter magic against you.

Also plays a lot nicer with DDT and TC than Snapcaster.

I wouldn’t really compare it to Snapcaster. Snapcaster is an instant and comes down after the original copy. There are a lot more uses for a Snapcaster.

It’s a decent effect for sure, and the mana cost as well as giving you a 2/1 probably makes it the best in its class of Fork spells. This is a sorcery speed effect though so it has limitations there, and you can’t use it on your opponent’s spells. You generally want to be copying effects that are worth at least 2 mana or more with these types of cards. The problem with them being that they make the original spell less efficient. Instead of pay U, Draw 3 on your Ancestral, it now becomes 1UU, Draw 6 put a 2/1 into play. That would be a great effect in a vacuum, but you’ve sacrificed your normal ancestral to get it. Same with Tim Walk. Instead of 1U, Take a Turn. You get 2UU, Take Two Extra Turns. In mana flood situations the second option is clear, but in mana shortages the first option is. So it doesn’t always upgrade your best spells. There is also a grey area in between where it could cause you to make a bad value judgement by playing your Ancestral as a sorcery later than you typically would.

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Sea Gate Stormcaller:

The problem with them being that they make the original spell less efficient. Instead of pay U, Draw 3 on your Ancestral, it now becomes 1UU, Draw 6 put a 2/1 into play.

The same can be said of Merchant Scroll / Demonic tutor, has not hurt how much play they see. UU1 Draw 3 has been a pretty common play for a long time.

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