@blindtherapy said in Cage V RIP:

@botvinik peacekeeper is an expensive spell at 3 mana, and once in play remains vulnerable to mana denial. there are other cards that likely win the game against shop when combined with stony that are better on their own than peacekeeper is on its own.

I think that, especially in the contest of a back to basics mana base, you are underestimating the guy. It is great versus Hogaak and dredge who typically have at most two ways to remove it in the 75 witch they may not even bring in if your main board shows few or no creatures. Those decks have no way to get to 20 without attacking so the effect frequently completely locks them out. But it’s not only good in the graveyard matchups. Eldrazi tends to board out creature removal for more disruptive elements when you show a creature light or devoid main meaning it can beat them in a single card as well. Without a stony silence it is only a stumbling block vs shops but it can frequently buy enough time to get one online especially if you have the ability to counter the first ballista. Now your point about being venerable to mana disruption is true but I have found great success recently playing more fetch dependent decks that run less duals and more basics and they can be very solid and hard to attack. I have found even with more normal man bases once I get to 3 man it is very hard for shops to drop me to 1 mana. While I will admit 3 mana is a lot peacekeeper is not inherently more expensive and slower than the other grave hate effects. Since they have to stop creatures from entering play and he can stop them once they have already resolved coming down a turn later is not actually any slower to come into effect.

Now I want to be clear I am not making comment directly about your conclusion you may be correct or not, but I think you were much more dismissive of the card than it, deserves wether or not it is ultimately the best option.

Also I cannot think of another card that is so effective versus that spread of decks, doges force of vigor and thorn effects, and does not care about force of negation. If you can name such a card please speak up as I would love to try it out.

@botvinik I run Magus of the Moon often. Without bazaar, they're dead, and it is universally a useful card. However, 3 mana is a lot, and you can die before turn 3 easily enough.

@botvinik said in Cage V RIP:

It is great versus Hogaak and dredge who typically have at most two ways to remove it in the 75 witch they may not even bring in if your main board shows few or no creatures. Those decks have no way to get to 20 without attacking so the effect frequently completely locks them out.

speaking with regard to dredge, not hogaak, i would point out that dredge often plays creeping chill, and thus only needs to have attacked for 8 to eventually kill you. dredge also still sometimes plays dread return, and ashen rider, elesh norn, or flayer of the hatebound off a dread return will kill peacekeeper, and anyone playing dread return will likely have at least one of those as a target.

It is probably controversial but I think folks may still be underestimating the power level of rest in peace. There simply aren't many enchantment cards that does what it does with a 187 effect and then provide a static effect. It provides value even if they FoV and you don't have a counter later and you can build so you break the symmetry. I attribute 100% of my middling, above average vintage play to rocking a md RiP and getting people g1. Because I also think folks rely on the gy way too much in blue now too. If you look at current meta of this post, md RiP has splash damage against: BUG (shutting off drs, goyf), jeskai (shutting off arcanist, snaps, dig, cruise), golos shops (those with the crucible), breach (basically just gg g1) and traditional dps with yawg will. It is just so wide. The only width you get with cage is maybe shutting off forge in shops and an edge in oath.

I'm biased but if you are trying to make a go of it with u/w (already an uphill battle) I reccomend trying a singleton RiP md and building around it. It has brought me a ton of wins.

last edited by DtC80

Amidst all this conversation let's not forget that there is some benefit to be had by diversifying your hate options. Having more cards with more crossover to cover more strategies can let you get more coverage out of your sideboard and insulates you from some counter hate cards.

Just a made up example, but a deck that runs 4 Grafgidders cage and 3 rest in peace in the side may find it more beneficial to run a copy of Ashiok, Dream Render over the 3rd rest since it is useful against a wider variety of decks. It is all dependent on your deck but having versatility in the sideboard is super important in larger events.

My newer iterations use enlightened tutor and maindeck RIP, arcane lab, energy flux(sometimes stony if I expect more PO), and of course back to basics. I have found this silver bullet approach to be very effective vs a variety if unfair decks and BTB cripples most "fair decks" to the pont where I don't feel bad about mainboard enlightened tutor.

last edited by Botvinik

@botvinik I took a similar approach in my Jund Oath build. E-tutor was an allstar. Got maindeck RiP, Stony, Chains, Vault/key, and of course...oath. It was Emrakul/oath, so it had the added bonus of upkeep fetching dragon breath to always put it on top to mill for a hasty Emmy. I loved a maindeck RiP in many games.

@botvinik said in Cage V RIP:

My newer iterations use enlightened tutor and maindeck RIP, arcane lab, energy flux(sometimes stony if I expect more PO), and of course back to basics. I have found this silver bullet approach to be very effective vs a variety if unfair decks and BTB cripples most "fair decks" to the pont where I don't feel bad about mainboard enlightened tutor.

Just curious, since you like 3CMC blue enchantments, what about Propaganda?

@protoaddict said in Cage V RIP:

Amidst all this conversation let's not forget that there is some benefit to be had by diversifying your hate options. Having more cards with more crossover to cover more strategies can let you get more coverage out of your sideboard and insulates you from some counter hate cards.

Just a made up example, but a deck that runs 4 Grafgidders cage and 3 rest in peace in the side may find it more beneficial to run a copy of Ashiok, Dream Render over the 3rd rest since it is useful against a wider variety of decks. It is all dependent on your deck but having versatility in the sideboard is super important in larger events.

I agree completely. I think right now I have 0-1 cage md 1-2 rip md and 0-1 ashiok in my beloved hatebears

@chronatog

If I planned to run prop I would rather just run moat and be done with it.

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