[ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation

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Set has been spoiled and this card appears to be the early chase mythic with multi-format implications. It replaces itself with the triggered ability, can fuel an incredibly potent card draw engine with Sylvan library (trigger landfall on your and your opponent's turn to draw the extra two), pitches to the three relevant Force of Wills, and has other potential with the mana generation and planeswalker sweeping ability. I am curious what shells people can imagine for the card in Vintage.

Works really well in conjunction with Fastbond and Lotus Cobra. Lotus cobra also allows you to hit the 4 colors necessary for it. It does kill almost all relevant PW's/Dudes used in vintage. Could be interesting. Sidenote, it also is an elemental, which maybe advantageous in some of the elemental decks I believe you, Chubby, have tried before.

last edited by Serracollector

Well the initial mana cost is the obvious limiter. Once it’s in play, this thing is great, fetch lands become really broken and so does anything else giving you extra land drops.

Cool card. I don’t think it’s good enough for vintage and here’s why:

  1. The self replacement is nice but you’re still just getting a 4/4 creature (without haste) so you’re not putting any pressure on your opponent with static abilities (like Lodestone) and there’s no threat of fast beatdown (like with Vengevine).

  2. The first two landfall triggers aren’t that great. We already have Lotus Cobra to generate mana from landfall triggers and Lotus Cobra sees no play. You just paid 4 mana to cast Omnath, so unless your deck is full of high casting cards, there might not be anything to spend the mana on.

  3. The 3rd landfall triggers requires extra stuff to pull off and it’s not even a relevant ability in all matchups — In most matchups.

So in conclusion all you’re really getting here is a cantrip 4/4, which is good enough for limited, but not Vintage.

EDIT

I think it’s probably good enough in Standard as well.

last edited by LieNielsen

@lienielsen said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

If you follow it up with a fetch land, you are getting a 4/4, gain 4 life for 0 mana and 0 cards (okay some of that mana gets filtered). It then sticks around keeps giving you more life, and mana the subsequent turns. This card is incredibly powerful once you hit 4 of each of its colors of mana. Arguably Vintage is the easiest place to hit its mana cost since you have access to Moxen, Deathrite and a Dual-land mana base so our mana bases are better than everyone elses.

last edited by vaughnbros

@vaughnbros Except, if you are casting this and then following up with a fetchland, you have 5 mana. For 5 mana (in even a single color, not 4 different colors), you should just be playing something like tezzeret and winning on the spot, not durdling and gaining life with a 4/4. This is vintage, where the game should be close to wrapped up with 5 permanent sources of mana. If this guy made 4/4s on land drops or had his "third land" ability as his first land ability, maybe...but as is, this dude is real slow and is at a price that should have already won the game.

@thewhitedragon69

He’s not 4 or 5 mana though. He’s situationally 0 mana and 0 cards.

There is no 4 or 5 mana card that just “wins on the spot”. That is a total myth. You need to meet numerous conditions for that.

Ad nauseam is a 5 mana card that damm near wins on the spot. This is not what you meant but tendrils is a 4 mana card that basically always wins when it is cast and belcher is a 4 mana card that wins pretty much immediately. The spirit of your statement is mostly true I think the only real counter example is ad nauseam but the text is quite false in the land of vintage.

Also I think the card is too color intensive it has actually been quite satisfactory in of itself (warning very small sample size) but I am having trouble making a deck that is a) enough colors to play it b) slow enough to to want it c) not horrible. Now maybe someone is smarter than me and can get this thing to work but I for one don’t see how.

Also a mana refund and 0 mana are very different just ask vintage staple great whale about that fine distinction.

last edited by Botvinik

@botvinik

Ah, yes, all those gold fish ANT and Belcher games. Good thing the opponent can’t play a card, and I don’t have to tailor my entire 60 card deck to support their play!

I play belcher and belcher is good, fast, and post MDFCs becoming scarily consistent. Your condescension is unwarranted, inaccurate, and unneighborly.

In other news I would never have to tailor my deck to play 4-5 colors in my control build. That is why the last 5c control deck to win a tournament is so old it was still called keeper. Therefore it’s obviously a natural move in the modern meta to play so many colors... oh I just read what I typed, oops maybe not so true.

(Yes I am aware of my hypocrisy but it doesn’t make me wrong, just hypocritical. Plus it felt good and there is nothing like instant gratification.)

last edited by Botvinik

Debates like this are why the drain sucks now. Belcher is good and 4 color decks doesn't exist? Lol. The posters here are so disconnected from reality.

There are lots of results you can check out here: https://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=VI

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

Debates like this are why the drain sucks now. Belcher is good and 4 color decks doesn't exist? Lol. The posters here are so disconnected from reality.

There are lots of results you can check out here: https://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=VI

I actually spent some time there before posting and the 4 color planeswalkers decks are the only ones that are slow and colorful enough to run omnath and they aren’t giving up black without a fight. Leovold and the removal package is too integral and leylines are not a small deal. I don’t know if you can get them to go 5c but that probably means no wastelands and they are a big part of what make the deck hum. Also belcher was not good 2 weeks ago but MDFCS mean I get real lands without loosing the speed inevitability or consistency. The deck is not tier one but it is far from a joke.

@botvinik

I can't even find a single result from Belcher in the last 2 years on that website. Its not just tier 2, its tier non-existent.

I'd love to post on here more, but its impossible to have a discussion or debate when every one seem to get hung up on very basic things, like that glass cannon decks are fucken terrible.

Also I would like to be very clear the card is not bad and a good shell for it may exist. I have not found it but I have no doubt some if not most of you are better than me and as such may be able to make it for yourselves. My point is it fits nowhere in decks that are currently popular and as such is very hard to evaluate or get hyped about.

last edited by Botvinik

Also did you miss the deck was not good 2 weeks ago. It may be bad in reality and I have not figured out the lists that beat it or I may be playing bad, but I have been playing a lot of belcher since MDFCs were spoiled and I have been proxying them in. It currently has a better record in my testing tournaments the traditional PO, doomsday, or xerox.

last edited by Botvinik

Also belcher is not a particularly fragile deck 4 PO 4 belcher 2 tezzeret 4 FOW 2 grids spiral ancestral and 4 living wishes mean you are actually pretty good at winning through disruption. The bigger problem is your mana is so bad it hurts. MDFCs help with that whitch is why I have spoken so glowingly about them here.

@botvinik

Okay... I will believe it when I see it... I know people like to build imaginary versions of the format in their heads, but I don't live in your head and it has yet to be seen that a glass cannon deck can produce consistent results in any metagame for the last 10+ years.

I agree, that this card doesn't have an immediate home, but it is good enough that I think you could consider adding the 5th color or cutting black from a manabase to make it work. This is Lurrus level card advantage in that it has 0 mana, 0 card investment potential for a card that if left unchecked will dominate two dimensions of the game (life and mana).

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@botvinik

Okay... I will believe it when I see it... I know people like to build imaginary versions of the format in their heads, but I don't live in your head and it has yet to be seen that a glass cannon deck can produce consistent results in any metagame for the last 10+ years.

I agree, that this card doesn't have an immediate home, but it is good enough that I think you could consider adding the 5th color or cutting black from a manabase to make it work. This is Lurrus level card advantage in that it has 0 mana, 0 card investment potential for a card that if left unchecked will dominate two dimensions of the game (life and mana).

Fair enough, aside from the barbs about imaginary formats whitch after my comments about you are probably deserved your statement makes sense. I am not the vintage metagame and honestly there are about 4 decks I think I can play well. My tests are far from exhaustive and that’s why if I can find a version I feel can’t be improved with my level of understanding I will drop the deck here (the mana drain not this thread) for people to test and help me fix. Also randy was doing well with belcher I think 7 years ago you can see the deck on the VSL if you are interested in trying it out.

I haven’t been able to see how a deck playing him works but I wish you the best in building it. The card is powerful if you can get it to not beak your colors but forgive me if I do not share your optimism about its fate at least short term.

last edited by Botvinik

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@botvinik

I can't even find a single result from Belcher in the last 2 years on that website. Its not just tier 2, its tier non-existent.

I'd love to post on here more, but its impossible to have a discussion or debate when every one seem to get hung up on very basic things, like that glass cannon decks are fucken terrible.

I actually 5-0'd with belcher the day the new set got released on mtgo using substandard spell lands because I couldn't find the ones that came in untapped for sale. There are a handful of us grinding the deck on mtgo right now, and while it's not going to break the format, it definitely feels playable.

5-0
another player having success

@notmi said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@botvinik

I can't even find a single result from Belcher in the last 2 years on that website. Its not just tier 2, its tier non-existent.

I'd love to post on here more, but its impossible to have a discussion or debate when every one seem to get hung up on very basic things, like that glass cannon decks are fucken terrible.

I actually 5-0'd with belcher the day the new set got released on mtgo using substandard spell lands because I couldn't find the ones that came in untapped for sale. There are a handful of us grinding the deck on mtgo right now, and while it's not going to break the format, it definitely feels playable.

5-0
another player having success

Are you also playing green or PO or both? I would really love to see your list if you would post it I think the deck is worth discussing further.

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