[ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation

@evouga said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

Yes, I think this is the right assessment. I'm not sure how this thread got so heated---it's clear that (1) Omnath is good, (2) Omnath is not Vintage-warping good, (3) establishing that a miser's copy of any card is significantly better than the next-best choice (in a quantitatively-sound way, beyond isolated anecdotes) is always very difficult, and that is no different for Omnath. Run him if you like him, or don't. shrug

I agree, when you only know the record, it is very difficult to infer the effect of a single card on game states an contributions to those records. But I really tried hard to describe the actual games in which Omnath was involved. This isn't a black box - you have the pilot's insights into the games played. In that way, it is more testing rather than observational data derived just from decklists and result. Except it has the added benefit of competitive play against random opponents.

It was compared to a singleton Peek and I won a Vintage Challenge with Peek. Where is the single card discussion I made on Peek? It doesn't exist. If you would have asked me why I included it, I was in the process of testing out several cantrips and included Peek for the Instant speed play around Narset/Leo and to help engineer the Breech combo around things like Surgical Extraction. Not the biggest endorsement of the card but I designed the deck, I played the games, and I won with the deck. That is certainly more insight than you had just glancing at the winning Breach list and going from there. It was also funny - another streamer picked up the deck played games with it, was like "Why am I playing Peek in my Vintage deck?" and cut the card for Lavinia. When you put their experiences with mine, it certainly builds more of a narrative regarding Peek as not the end-all-be-all card for Vintage.

Now, I included my reasons for including Omnath and then followed with my experiences with the card. Of this information, people have picked and chosen whatever snippets they find most convenient, whether it's of the record or things like pitching to either Force being a primary mode of play (it's not, but a card is the sum of its parts and pitching to Forces is a component of its versatility). That is really frustrating when you take the effort to include much more in your posts.

I will add additional information in that the MTGO leagues have been insanely Bazaar heavy, with 10 of my 19 matches against various Bazaar decks. In those matches, I am 9-1 (17-3 overall) with Omnath fulfilling a critical part when he makes an appearance. The gaining 7 life a turn nullifies Hogaak or multiple Vines + Hollow Ones and the 4/4 body blocks the smaller creatures. The card isn't enough by itself but you are generally able to remove a portion of the clock with graveyard hate, removal, or Tabernacle, and the Omnath effectively closes the door with either the life or by fueling a broken turn with 9 mana (and Lutri to copy a Time Walk or Ancestral or something).

I would also ask @LieNielsen, which of those matchups is Omnath bad against? It's really just Xerox (which hasn't been very popular). Omnath is actually better than Mentor against PO and Doomsday because of the ability to pitch to Force and the cantrip, so it's rarely a dead card as opposed to Mentor, and I've found it to be circumstantially better than Mentor against the various Hogaak decks since your tokens can't always deal with the Trample. In any case, you aren't choosing between Mentor and this but having a card that has a comparable role to Mentor is certainly a boon for control decks in this metagame.

last edited by chubbyrain1

@chubbyrain1 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

I would also ask @LieNielsen, which of those matchups is Omnath bad against? It's really just Xerox (which hasn't been very popular). Omnath is actually better than Mentor against PO and Doomsday because of the ability to pitch to Force and the cantrip, so it's rarely a dead card as opposed to Mentor, and I've found it to be circumstantially better than Mentor against the various Hogaak decks since your tokens can't always deal with the Trample. In any case, you aren't choosing between Mentor and this but having a card that has a comparable role to Mentor is certainly a boon for control decks in this metagame.

It wouldn’t be my first choice against any of those matchups specifically but I can acknowledge that it seems to be functional in some useful capacity in probably all of those matchups.

I have found omnath to be very unimpressive vs stax and doomsday. (Just pointing out decks it is bad against at least as far as I have played)

@botvinik Cool, in what context and in what ways?

@pilsburydohboy42

Way too slow to be effective vs doomsday and not very impactful vs stax. Stax does not care omnath gained you 50 life when you are locked under trinisphere smoke stax crucible. Doomsday just kills you and laughs at your 4 drop.

It’s both big enough to get wrecked by ensnaring bridge and small enough it can’t kill Golos in combat whitch is a very unhappy medium against stax specifically.

@botvinik said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@pilsburydohboy42

Way too slow to be effective vs doomsday and not very impactful vs stax. Stax does not care omnath gained you 50 life when you are locked under trinisphere smoke stax crucible. Doomsday just kills you and laughs at your 4 drop.

With Omnath in play, a single fetchland generates 5 mana, which is surely enough to get out from under any number of Sphere effects.

I can see that Omanth vs Golos is a sad time, though.

@evouga If you are casting a 4 mana spell that costs 4 different colors, through a sphere effect, then the shops deck you are facing is clearly not doing its job. If you are able to cast a 4-color sorcery vs stax, you already won that game.

Dragon is partially correct. There are 2 ways stax can win

  1. make you not cast spells, if you can cast omnath you can cast spells so shops must be on plan
  2. make your spells not matter then get stax in play then plan 1 again.

In this case omnath is not very impressive either because he fails to handle the things that make your spells not matter, bridge/spyglass/cage/golos recursive land loops. Also karakas.

You should all drop whatever definitions you have about this game. There are more than 2 ways that shops can win. There is more than 1 way that you can win. There is more than 1 way to build any given deck. Very few cards are equal, most are incredibly abstract. Very few players are equal, most are incredibly eccentric. Even after you test comprehensively and define things to your own standards you should consider all other options. Each new card that exists has the potential to fundamentally change all other cards.

@pilsburydohboy42

  1. Not shops in general specifically stax see post chain.
  2. No, it is unwise to reinvent your entire understanding of the game constantly the rules are still the same and the lessons you learned in the past are usually still valid. If that were true then the restricted list should be scrapped every set release.
  3. The ways I describe are the fundamental functions of stax if you wish to say it wins other ways you must then also accept that standstill is a beatdown deck, DPS is a mill deck, and servant combo is an aggro deck. These are theoretical paths to victory shure but they are not the design of the decks in question. DPS can play mill by dropping necro and watching you deck out, but that is a very poor way of understanding how it works. It is far more useful to talk about decks in terms of their primary/secondary/tertiary/quaternary/ect plans then in terms of of theoretical possible victory paths. Those are stax's 2 plans there are no more and no less and it does a disservice to the discussion to do as you do here and say any deck can win any way so it is pointless to describe deck paths to victory in terms of a limited number of set paths.
last edited by Botvinik

@botvinik Interesting, I find it to be a disservice to discussion when somebody says something like "this card might be good, here are a few scenarios in which it has proven successful for me: {examples}." and almost immediately like 9 other people jump in with 1 line arguments about how this card totally sucks and could never work, it's impossible to play a 4 color card in vintage, you should just play Tezzeret, etc,. Especially within the context of a new card thread; we're not talking about a deck, a metagame - nothing other than "can this card be good?"

@pilsburydohboy42

If you intend this as a general statement you are correct the dogpile is unhelpful although that is because of a difference in numbers rather than a structural issue with the type of question/statement. If it is intended in reference of me personally you may want to reread my posts on this thread as your criticisms are ill fitting. I would not normally assume you were referring to me personally but you literally @ed me so I am lead to that conclusion.

last edited by Botvinik

I am responsive to this criticism.

I have now rebuilt the deck as an Oath deck.

Omnath is the only creature I can Oath into in the MD (SB has an Archon of Vigor).

The deck's name is Omnoath.

Currently 2-0 in league matches ☺

Edit: Finished 4-1 😞

last edited by chubbyrain1

@chubbyrain1 I like this idea. In theory, though it may be less busted than GB or emrakul, it is hard castable and should net you 4 life and enable 7+ mana on turn 2-3, which should allow for some broken plays. Not sure what those plays would be, but it could be something.

I like this approach, whether it works or not, because it truly evaluates the strength/merits of omnath. It's not just a singleton in a deck that wins whether you ever see him (or just pitch him) or not.

@thewhitedragon69 I've been using Sevinne's Reclamation to either Breach kill, bring back a couple walkers, or trigger the 3rd ability to clean up planeswalkers.

Does the deck evaluate the strengths of Omnath or the strength of Oath of Druid in a format that has a lot of BUG/Bazaar decks?

Does the deck evaluate the strengths of Omnath or the pretty heavy permission suite with a ton of Blue cards and disruption to make the Forces work (without as much inconsistently as Oath typically has when you have a Griselbrand in your hand)?

Does the deck evaluate the strength of Omnath or the power of the cantrip-Delve card engine letting you win the late game with whatever you want, provided you can consistently get there?

The goal of any deck should be to have cards that work together and I think trying to pull out parts and look at them in isolation loses sight of the bigger picture.

To that end, I don't know how to really answer your question any more than I did before by playing it in a Lutri shell. Omnath is just doing the same things he was doing before more frequently in this shell.

Record now is 7-1 for what it's worth but again, that's not what I'm trying to do here. My main goal is to convey the general strategies I'm pursuing with this card and the results.

@chubbyrain1 I definitely think this is a better way to feature omnath, as you presumably almost always kill with omnath or see him almost every game. Being a 1-of is fine in this context, because you have him hit play 95% of the time...not 5%. If you find that you are oathing and killing with breach almost every time, than omnath could be almost anything and it would make no difference...but I suspect you are actually doing a lot with omnath as a kill card. I imagine you are probably fetching after oathing up omnath and using that +4 mana to cast Sevine's for the Breach, which is displaying the power of omnath as much as anything. Again, I don't know if it's really better than GB here, but it should at least have some action when it hits play, nearly every game.

I never really though Omnath was bad...I just didn't care for 5-0 records of a singleton card in a deck that won 80+% of the games without ever seeing him as evidence of "he's good."

This is at least slightly more Omnathy because it would be more impactful in this deck to replace him with a blank card then it would have been in the Lutri deck. If that is meaningful information is questionable but it is more omanth centric data.

  • 120
    Posts
  • 9267
    Views