Etiquette question: is it more polite to at a person quote them or respond without doing either? Also what is the usual implied meaning of liking a post? And finally, is it considered acceptable to edit someone’s quote so it only includes the section you are responding to or is it bad to not include the whole thing? Thanks to anyone who answers and if this does not belong here I will delete it and put it where it belongs assuming you tell me where that is.
Karn was absurdly broken to the point of restriction. This card is obviously no where close to that, nor are any of these other 4 cost cards or planeswalkers for that matter. Even Narset that was also restricted pales in comparison to Karn's power level. One of those cards that they definitely pushed super hard.
I don't think Jace is bad, but it seems outclassed by other planeswalker options now. Decks are mostly just playing it because its less colors as you've indicated, and they want that versatility that a planeswalker brings.
As the discussion is on Omnath, like I've said, I think his/her playability would stem from the fact that its not actually costing you any mana at all.
Then I want to ask a specific question what are you planning to spend the mana on? Because you have already raised your curve by running omnaths so what 5 drop is worth playing that you think fits into the deck and why does your 4 drop need to be chased by a 5 to be effective. Now if the mana stuck around so you could spend it on say a force of will during your opponents turn I would agree but it empties witch means you need to be playing a 5 mana sorcery speed threat to follow omnath to keep his mana from just exiting the pool. And if Omanth refunds just to have you not spend the mana, he may well have never given you a refund in the first place.
This is why I could not make this deck work when I tried. He is not enough on his own and whenever I cast a 4-5 mana walker to follow him up I wonder why I did not skip the middle man and run an individually game winning threat like oko instead of this weird 4/4. Given cantripping helps no question, but when I cast this my next thought was usually I wish this were either jace or oko.
Oh wow, the conversation has really taken off...
So in conclusion all you’re really getting here is a cantrip 4/4, which is good enough for limited, but not Vintage.
I think it’s probably good enough in Standard as well.
The card has already put up league and tournament results in Pioneer and Modern. It is unsurprisingly quite good with Uro, Growth Spiral, and fetch lands.
As for Standard, uhhh...
Uro is certainly the most powerful card in the format, but Omnath has undoubtably established itself as beyond "probably good enough".
One particular interaction that @Botvinik and others seems to be missing is the ability can be triggered on the opponent's turn so you don't have to make mana off a fetch if you aren't using the mana. The key synergy that hasn't been explored in Vintage or Legacy is with Sylvan Library where you turn the 7 life from a fetch into 2-3 cards a turn. This card has the making of a control finisher. Along those lines, it has a lot of value pitching to Forces in those control decks.
Edit: If people want comparisons, is this card that different from a massively power crept Bloodbraid Elf? It draws a card when it comes into play and gives you the mana to cast it if it's a spell. There are differences of course, but the value and mana generation are similar. You also have additional utility in the life gain and the damage.
@chubbyrain1 I'm sure this is good in standard, and probably pioneer and modern (though I think it's more of an Uro-is-nuts issue than anything). But we're talking vintage. A 4 color 4/4 is not great in vintage, last I checked. Gaining life is nice, but getting a third land drop requires gymnastics, or at least playing a fetch and cracking it plus an uncracked fetch already in play (not counting the 4 mana you already used to cast this), so it's 3rd ability seems unlikely most games.
Bloodbraid is a comparison, but only 2 colors, has haste, casts a spell you flip for free...and is still unplayed in Vintage. That's not a strong endorsement for Omnath being the next reckoning in Vintage.
you should just be playing something like tezzeret and winning on the spot, not durdling and gaining life with a 4/4. This is vintage, where the game should be close to wrapped up with 5 permanent sources of mana.
Wow, I just saw this and I feel personally attacked. Brian Kelly and I will durdle as much as we want, thank you very much.
More seriously, I established the scope of the comparison along the lines of value and mana generation, not vintage playability. The purpose of the comparison was to help people conceptualize why the card is seeing so much play in formats like Pioneer and Modern. Pointing out things outside of the scope does not invalidate the comparison and does not really add much. I'm pretty sure most people are able to process that Omnath does not have haste, is a 3/2, is card #50 in Shards of Alara, and had a different artist. It is not incredibly useful to compare these metrics as Bloodbraid Elf sits in play as a 3/2 while Omnath continues to generate life, mana, and potential damage as the game progresses, giving each a different functional role. Also, I think both Dominic Domingo and Chris Rahn did a great job on the artwork for each of the cards despite different styles.
This card seems like it will get banned in Standard. Just insane to have 9 mana if you played it on turn 4 or have it come down for free on that turn 5.
I agree the Sylvan Library interaction is great. The interaction with Wrenn and Six is alone is also pretty crazy. Also just blocking for any of your planeswalkers is great (4/4 > 3/3 for Oko). Generating an absurd amount of life + mana is also great. This card does so many great things.
The mana cost isn't all that prohibitive in the right deck. Deathrite + an on-color mox (4/5 moxes are on-color for this) lets you play it on turn 2. On turn 3 with a fetch land you now have 9 mana. That lets you power out pretty much anything you can think of (okay not Griselbrand), and even drop multiple planeswalkers in one turn.
Yeah, to be clear, I don't think cards have to be the next reckoning in Vintage.
I have a very low threshold to play cards I find interesting and this card certainly meets that criteria. I just tried to share a bit of why I thought it was interesting and how I intended to explore it.
If the standard we are aiming for is interesting creature that could do powerful things and is not completely unplayable then Omnath certainly hits the mark. His effect can be very good, even if it as I suspect frequently isn’t, the effect when combined with library is a great value engine. I agree with that idea so much I tried to build something with him. I can not find a shell that is comp viable and works for Omnath and I strongly suspect none exists but it certainly could be a pice of a fun rouge deck and maybe even steal some wins. And in the end it is always possible that some clever mind see how to do what I cannot and makes this guy viable.
This + Dr. Shaman + Coalition Victory can win the game on the spot, and just requires a fetchland after those 2 are in play.
4 Dr. Shaman
4 Coalition Victory
10-12 Force of Blah blah
Restricted list goodies
2 of each blue dual
That's where I would start, because it's fun, surprising, and might win a game or 2.
Currently 3-0(6-1) in the Vintage leagues.
Finding things to do with Omnath mana has not been difficult, nor has been triggering Landfall. I think I punted game 1 against Dredge but that was going to be rough anyway. Omnath gaining me 50 or so life through blocks and triggers was important but I misunderstood some key interactions that proved critical and prevented me from decking the opponent. It was a really neat game and Omnath was certainly more impactful than a Planeswalker that would have died to Ichorids.
The way I determine a card's "playability" is to try a build the ideal deck for a card. I incorporate as many synergistic elements as I can think of and that are reasonable to include so that even a single copy in a deck can work as well as theoretically possible. If a card does not perform well even in that ideal circumstance, that's when I start to question the card's viability (though of course one has to consider if the shell was really ideal and if it could be improved).
To that end, I am wondering what the deck you tried looked like @Botvinik?
Also, I beat a Belcher deck with the Omnath deck. That should put an end to the Belcher vs Omnath debate.
belcher v omnath was never the debate the debate was is belcher a real deck.
if that is what it takes for you to declare case closed you should be attaching even bigger small sample size riders than I do.
5 color control I ended up with main deck stony silence because I cut moxen to make space for my expanded land base. 8 forces 2 vigors in the board for shops. 2 libraries 2 jaces 1 dack 3 okos 1 wren and six 2 ugin 1 narset and some paths. Had to shave 2 preordains to make space for petal and the second delve spell. 4 Omnaths and the big plan was the turn after omanth to fetch, crack, Ugin although I will admit that may have been a bit greedy.
It is possible -2 omnath -2 stony -2 ugin -1 land +5 mox +2 preordain is correct but when I played the deck that way it felt like a 4c walkers deck where
a) I have no wastelands.
b) My mana is worse.
Thing that crushed me
my stax winrate felt close to 0 the deck was impressively bad against golos stax. Given I am quite solid stax player and I have never played this deck before.
doomsday, my deck is so much worse than theirs it hurts they are faster and have more counter magic. It was a slaughter.
aggro shops, my preferred aggro shops list main decks sundering titans in the flex slots so the results may have been skewed but the matchup felt bad. Even with the rods their creatures are bigger and better than mine and sometimes all my lands disappear.
oath, 4 main deck pyros and a pair of flusters with 2 more in the board is just catastrophic. In addition there is no real god plan to beat the oath creatures that is not race with mentor or resolve ugin for Niv. It is just really hard to win without throwing the game. Although I will note this matchup is not as bad as the others this felt winnable but unfavored.
standstill, the anti blue deck blue deck is good against my blue deck what a surprise.
Nice, Matt! I will look forward to list whenever you are ready to share.
I don't know why you would cut moxen to add more 4+ drops to a deck. That doesn't make any sense. This card plays very well with moxen as almost all of them are on-color for it. The ideal scenario as I laid out would be to put yourself into a position to drop it on turn 2, and then have a huge turn 3.