[ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation

I wrote that I designed a deck specifically around a card and am now 10-0 with it. I did not argue that I am 10-0 because of that card. That is a poor interpretation of what was asserted. This deck was meant to highlight several interactions and mana sinks that worked favorably with Omnath even as a single copy. You ignored everything else I presented but the record and meme.

last edited by chubbyrain1

Stating that that is the logical implication of chubby's post is clearly a bridge too far, but acting like such an inference is highly unreasonable, especially with the 5-0 being held up in the omnath thread itself, is also an aggressive stance, to put it kindly.

Well he just got hit with the ban hammer in a bunch of other formats so clearly a powerful card...

@vaughnbros

I mean standard and historic are pretty similar. And who knows what brawl is. If it were actually banned across multiple formats, such as modern and legacy, the power would be more evident.

@lienielsen

It won the 100+ person Modern Challenge.

Third in a recent Pioneer Challenge

Adam Yurchick just wrote an article entitled Is Omnath, Locus of Creation the Best Creature Ever?

Spoiler:

Omnath, Locus of Creation might not be the most powerful creature ever, nor the most efficient nor versatile, but it really does seem like the best.

As for creatures banned in Standard and (Modern or Legacy), it's literally Stoneforge Mystic, which is currently unbanned in Modern without an issue (card is only mediocre). Requiring a creature be banned in multiple formats is an absurd criterion for card evaluation. Mentor and Lodestone Golem aren't banned in any formats. Lavinia isn't really even played in other formats.

It's like saying Deathrite Shaman and Golgari Grave-Troll are the only good creatures...

@chubbyrain1

On the positive side, I agree that Deathrite is definitely the best creature of all time relative to other 1 drops. Its outrageous how much better it is than other options at that slot.

@chubbyrain1

I agree with you. I think Omnath being banned in standard has nothing to do with Vintage.

But if it were banned in legacy or modern, I’d have a good reason to assume it’s a really good card.

last edited by LieNielsen

Is mentor not still widely considered the best creature ever?

@botvinik

In Vintage maybe. At least 1 copy of Mentor is legal in every format though. So without mana rocks, he's not nearly as good.

To say that any creature is the "best" ever is a bit hyperbolic. Amongst the best sure, but since creatures all fit different roles it's really a false proposition.

Saying lightning bolt is the best Burn spell in the game is very different than saying it is the best spell in the game. Omnath may actually be the best at his role, which seems to be a midrange value finisher, but it's not like shops is going to run him.

Black lotus is largely considered the best card in the game, and even that does not get played in every deck. It's all subjective and it is kinda a stupid point to discuss. A 4 mana, 4 color creature (and one of the colors is not black which is probably worse still) that does not win the game on the spot is still a tough sell to me, especially considering we have a banned creature in the format in lurris (I know he has since changed.)

Tangent time, Ancestral Recall is the best card in the game. Good in every situation. Versatility of cards matters, and that makes Black Lotus an inferior card (since its only good when you can use the mana).

Bannings/restrictions in other formats indicate a cards power level on at least some of the dimensions of the game. There are some that are unique to some formats (like Lodestone with Mishra's Workshop, or Monastery Mentor with Moxen), but others are so powerful that they transcend that power level.

This card got hit in Standard very quickly. I wouldn't assume that means it won't get hit in every other format in the coming months.

I disagree that ancestral is the best card in magic. At least in the context of played games. I think the best card in magic is Bazaar of Baghdad. It is a single card that commands something on the order of half to a third of all sideboard slots in vintage. There is not other card where a reasonable if not tier (and certainly tier at points in the past) deck can mull to 3 look at their hand, see one and 2 completely random cards and say yah I am probably favored. No other card in any format I am aware of is a compulsory mull to one for and I am not aware of such a card at any point in the past either.

You're all wrong. Peek is the best card. It just won a vintage challenge as a singleton. It's blue, so it pitches to force of will, it cantrips, just like omnath, and it is synergistic with other cards in the deck. The card probably only appeared in a third of games played and was likely pitched to force in about half of those games, but being a singleton in a Vintage Challenge winning list is clearly the bar for a card being good. I was considering nominating "island" from that same list, as it has synergies with all the fetchlands, but it doesn't cantrip, so Peek gets the nod here. 5-0 VC win with a singleton, checks all the boxes.

@botvinik said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

I can not find a shell that is comp viable and works for Omnath and I strongly suspect none exists but it certainly could be a pice of a fun rouge deck and maybe even steal some wins.

@Thewhitedragon69 I posted my record because of this statement. I told you it wasn't the crux of my argument but apparently you didn't grasp that...

This thread...

@lienielsen said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

So in conclusion all you’re really getting here is a cantrip 4/4, which is good enough for limited, but not Vintage.

EDIT

I think it’s probably good enough in Standard as well.

@lienielsen said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@chubbyrain1

I agree with you. I think Omnath being banned in standard has nothing to do with Vintage.

But if it were banned in legacy or modern, I’d have a good reason to assume it’s a really good card.

Can't wait for the follow up: Alright, it's banned in every format, WotC bought back every copy, set them on fire, and gave every player a holographic Black Lotus as compensation. I guess the card was decent.

@chubbyrain1 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

This thread...

Seriously. I'm confused why anybody has such an adamant stance that this card is bad. There is no point in the game where Omnath won't be functioning as you want it to and at the very worst it replaces itself. Also I can't imagine you want more than 2 in even the most dedicated of decks (even then 2 might be rough), so if you are a results-oriented person I'm not sure why singleton results don't count.

@pilsburydohboy42 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@chubbyrain1 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

This thread...

Seriously. I'm confused why anybody has such an adamant stance that this card is bad. There is no point in the game where Omnath won't be functioning as you want it to and at the very worst it replaces itself. Also I can't imagine you want more than 2 in even the most dedicated of decks (even then 2 might be rough), so if you are a results-oriented person I'm not sure why singleton results don't count.

Yes, I think this is the right assessment. I'm not sure how this thread got so heated---it's clear that (1) Omnath is good, (2) Omnath is not Vintage-warping good, (3) establishing that a miser's copy of any card is significantly better than the next-best choice (in a quantitatively-sound way, beyond isolated anecdotes) is always very difficult, and that is no different for Omnath. Run him if you like him, or don't. shrug

It just doesn’t slot into any good existing decks and the card isn’t powerful enough to justify a whole new archetype.

According to mtgoldfish the topdecks are bug, doomsday, PO, Xerox, Workshops, Dredge, etc. Omnath doesn’t fit into any of those decks and his abilities are not impressive in vintage for the reasons I mentioned.

@evouga said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

Yes, I think this is the right assessment. I'm not sure how this thread got so heated---it's clear that (1) Omnath is good, (2) Omnath is not Vintage-warping good, (3) establishing that a miser's copy of any card is significantly better than the next-best choice (in a quantitatively-sound way, beyond isolated anecdotes) is always very difficult, and that is no different for Omnath. Run him if you like him, or don't. shrug

I agree, when you only know the record, it is very difficult to infer the effect of a single card on game states an contributions to those records. But I really tried hard to describe the actual games in which Omnath was involved. This isn't a black box - you have the pilot's insights into the games played. In that way, it is more testing rather than observational data derived just from decklists and result. Except it has the added benefit of competitive play against random opponents.

It was compared to a singleton Peek and I won a Vintage Challenge with Peek. Where is the single card discussion I made on Peek? It doesn't exist. If you would have asked me why I included it, I was in the process of testing out several cantrips and included Peek for the Instant speed play around Narset/Leo and to help engineer the Breech combo around things like Surgical Extraction. Not the biggest endorsement of the card but I designed the deck, I played the games, and I won with the deck. That is certainly more insight than you had just glancing at the winning Breach list and going from there. It was also funny - another streamer picked up the deck played games with it, was like "Why am I playing Peek in my Vintage deck?" and cut the card for Lavinia. When you put their experiences with mine, it certainly builds more of a narrative regarding Peek as not the end-all-be-all card for Vintage.

Now, I included my reasons for including Omnath and then followed with my experiences with the card. Of this information, people have picked and chosen whatever snippets they find most convenient, whether it's of the record or things like pitching to either Force being a primary mode of play (it's not, but a card is the sum of its parts and pitching to Forces is a component of its versatility). That is really frustrating when you take the effort to include much more in your posts.

I will add additional information in that the MTGO leagues have been insanely Bazaar heavy, with 10 of my 19 matches against various Bazaar decks. In those matches, I am 9-1 (17-3 overall) with Omnath fulfilling a critical part when he makes an appearance. The gaining 7 life a turn nullifies Hogaak or multiple Vines + Hollow Ones and the 4/4 body blocks the smaller creatures. The card isn't enough by itself but you are generally able to remove a portion of the clock with graveyard hate, removal, or Tabernacle, and the Omnath effectively closes the door with either the life or by fueling a broken turn with 9 mana (and Lutri to copy a Time Walk or Ancestral or something).

I would also ask @LieNielsen, which of those matchups is Omnath bad against? It's really just Xerox (which hasn't been very popular). Omnath is actually better than Mentor against PO and Doomsday because of the ability to pitch to Force and the cantrip, so it's rarely a dead card as opposed to Mentor, and I've found it to be circumstantially better than Mentor against the various Hogaak decks since your tokens can't always deal with the Trample. In any case, you aren't choosing between Mentor and this but having a card that has a comparable role to Mentor is certainly a boon for control decks in this metagame.

last edited by chubbyrain1

@chubbyrain1 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

I would also ask @LieNielsen, which of those matchups is Omnath bad against? It's really just Xerox (which hasn't been very popular). Omnath is actually better than Mentor against PO and Doomsday because of the ability to pitch to Force and the cantrip, so it's rarely a dead card as opposed to Mentor, and I've found it to be circumstantially better than Mentor against the various Hogaak decks since your tokens can't always deal with the Trample. In any case, you aren't choosing between Mentor and this but having a card that has a comparable role to Mentor is certainly a boon for control decks in this metagame.

It wouldn’t be my first choice against any of those matchups specifically but I can acknowledge that it seems to be functional in some useful capacity in probably all of those matchups.

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