[ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation

@notmi

Yes, if you can build Belcher as a slower non-glass cannon deck then maybe it would be playable... I'm still not quite sure how the existence of a slow belcher deck is relevant to invalidating every other 4 drop in the format.

It doesn’t but the comment there are no 4-5 drops that instantly win the game it does invalidate.

Belcher is a 7-drop if you want to win the game with it...

Not exactly opals, LED, academy, and mishra’s workshop can skew that number. Also counting colored and colorless mana equally is a fallacy. I was ignoring that and hoping you would in return ignore the activation cost. I think 7 colorless is easier then 4 different colors but I may be wrong also see comment about omnath only being as you describe if you cast him on 5 and follow with a fetch land.

@botvinik said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@notmi said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@botvinik

I can't even find a single result from Belcher in the last 2 years on that website. Its not just tier 2, its tier non-existent.

I'd love to post on here more, but its impossible to have a discussion or debate when every one seem to get hung up on very basic things, like that glass cannon decks are fucken terrible.

I actually 5-0'd with belcher the day the new set got released on mtgo using substandard spell lands because I couldn't find the ones that came in untapped for sale. There are a handful of us grinding the deck on mtgo right now, and while it's not going to break the format, it definitely feels playable.

5-0
another player having success

Are you also playing green or PO or both? I would really love to see your list if you would post it I think the deck is worth discussing further.

His post has clickable links. You can see for yourself.

Thanks they didn’t work on my phone but they do on PC I guess you never know when you will learn something new.

Great Belcher discussion on a thread that has nothing to do with Belcher... glad we could cover that some people are still trying to break the format with a card that was printed almost 20 years ago. Maybe they'll finally do it! Tune in next time at The Mana Drain, where we can derail any conversation into something totally different than the initial topic!

@vaughnbros I think the main point is that Omnath is a 4-different-color mana spell that does nothing but cantrip unless you follow with a land immediately (in which case, you have access to 5 mana). For 4 or 5 mana, you could play more impactful cards without needing to stretch into 4+ colors. This guy is neat, but he's not tinker/tezzeret/mentor/etc awesomeness for the cost. Several 4 mana permanents requiring less colors have great effects without being playable. I just think all this guy's requirements for the ability to just gain life or maybe ramp mana (as if you need more than 5 in vintage) are really that great.

@botvinik said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

Not exactly opals, LED, academy, and mishra’s workshop can skew that number.

Are you playing Workshops in Belcher?

Yes, sideboard then get it with living wish if they waste academy or forgemaster has already been grabbed and removed.

Oh, haha. Sorry, i thought you meant in the main deck.

@thewhitedragon69

There are basically no playable 4 drops in Vintage unless you can cheat on their cost. The mana generated by this card let’s you “cheat” on its cost. Bringing up unplayable 4 and 5 drops adds little to nothing to the argument. Nor does “it needs to win on the spot” because even “winning on the spot” is not good enough. PO is the only playable “4 drop” based on the numbers and its because it replaces its mana.

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@thewhitedragon69

There are basically no playable 4 drops in Vintage unless you can cheat on their cost. The mana generated by this card let’s you “cheat” on its cost. Bringing up unplayable 4 and 5 drops adds little to nothing to the argument. Nor does “it needs to win on the spot” because even “winning on the spot” is not good enough. PO is the only playable “4 drop” based on the numbers and its because it replaces its mana.

This is inaccurate if for no other reason, Jace the Mind Sculptor. You can argue Karn(the restricted one) allows you to cheat on its cost by grabbing a restricted rock from the board but I think that is silly so I am going to ignore it. Therefore there are a MINIMUM of 2 playable 4 mana walkers one of whitch was good enough to get itself restricted, neither of whitch pay for themselves. Also tendrils is still a kill condition that sees play and still costs 4 mana with no refund. Tezzeret may or may not have a refund depending on how you value fetching time vault but if you don’t count that then there is even a playable 5 mana walker without a way to cheat on it’s cost.

last edited by Botvinik

@botvinik

JtMS has largely been replaced by Oko and Wrenn... Tezz has not been playable in almost a decade.

last edited by vaughnbros

Tezzeret was showing up in PO lists as a one or two of as recently as 3-4 years ago and Jace still sees play outside green decks and not infrequently as a 1 or 2 of in them. More FON less wasteland builds may shave at least some of the wrens and run a Jace. In addition he is still present in some builds of rector, many builds of standstill, and some urza decks although there he is uncommon. Jace is far from dead.

P.S. Got any response for Karn?

last edited by Botvinik

I even saw a build of doomsday that called itself a control deck and ran 2 Jace I don’t know how good it is but it is an interesting idea.

Etiquette question: is it more polite to at a person quote them or respond without doing either? Also what is the usual implied meaning of liking a post? And finally, is it considered acceptable to edit someone’s quote so it only includes the section you are responding to or is it bad to not include the whole thing? Thanks to anyone who answers and if this does not belong here I will delete it and put it where it belongs assuming you tell me where that is.

last edited by Botvinik

Karn was absurdly broken to the point of restriction. This card is obviously no where close to that, nor are any of these other 4 cost cards or planeswalkers for that matter. Even Narset that was also restricted pales in comparison to Karn's power level. One of those cards that they definitely pushed super hard.

I don't think Jace is bad, but it seems outclassed by other planeswalker options now. Decks are mostly just playing it because its less colors as you've indicated, and they want that versatility that a planeswalker brings.

As the discussion is on Omnath, like I've said, I think his/her playability would stem from the fact that its not actually costing you any mana at all.

@vaughnbros

Then I want to ask a specific question what are you planning to spend the mana on? Because you have already raised your curve by running omnaths so what 5 drop is worth playing that you think fits into the deck and why does your 4 drop need to be chased by a 5 to be effective. Now if the mana stuck around so you could spend it on say a force of will during your opponents turn I would agree but it empties witch means you need to be playing a 5 mana sorcery speed threat to follow omnath to keep his mana from just exiting the pool. And if Omanth refunds just to have you not spend the mana, he may well have never given you a refund in the first place.

This is why I could not make this deck work when I tried. He is not enough on his own and whenever I cast a 4-5 mana walker to follow him up I wonder why I did not skip the middle man and run an individually game winning threat like oko instead of this weird 4/4. Given cantripping helps no question, but when I cast this my next thought was usually I wish this were either jace or oko.

last edited by Botvinik

@botvinik

Ummm lots of different stuff can be cast, like Treasure Cruise, Dack Fayden, Wrenn and Six, Oko, Lightning Bolt, ect. Casting 1 spell a turn is not really how Vintage turns are played.

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