[ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation

Oh wow, the conversation has really taken off...

@lienielsen said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

So in conclusion all you’re really getting here is a cantrip 4/4, which is good enough for limited, but not Vintage.

EDIT

I think it’s probably good enough in Standard as well.

The card has already put up league and tournament results in Pioneer and Modern. It is unsurprisingly quite good with Uro, Growth Spiral, and fetch lands.

As for Standard, uhhh...
0_1600817351775_24df0d98-208f-4863-b5bc-6d286814e314-image.png
Uro is certainly the most powerful card in the format, but Omnath has undoubtably established itself as beyond "probably good enough".

One particular interaction that @Botvinik and others seems to be missing is the ability can be triggered on the opponent's turn so you don't have to make mana off a fetch if you aren't using the mana. The key synergy that hasn't been explored in Vintage or Legacy is with Sylvan Library where you turn the 7 life from a fetch into 2-3 cards a turn. This card has the making of a control finisher. Along those lines, it has a lot of value pitching to Forces in those control decks.

Edit: If people want comparisons, is this card that different from a massively power crept Bloodbraid Elf? It draws a card when it comes into play and gives you the mana to cast it if it's a spell. There are differences of course, but the value and mana generation are similar. You also have additional utility in the life gain and the damage.

last edited by chubbyrain1

@chubbyrain1 I'm sure this is good in standard, and probably pioneer and modern (though I think it's more of an Uro-is-nuts issue than anything). But we're talking vintage. A 4 color 4/4 is not great in vintage, last I checked. Gaining life is nice, but getting a third land drop requires gymnastics, or at least playing a fetch and cracking it plus an uncracked fetch already in play (not counting the 4 mana you already used to cast this), so it's 3rd ability seems unlikely most games.

Bloodbraid is a comparison, but only 2 colors, has haste, casts a spell you flip for free...and is still unplayed in Vintage. That's not a strong endorsement for Omnath being the next reckoning in Vintage.

@thewhitedragon69 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

you should just be playing something like tezzeret and winning on the spot, not durdling and gaining life with a 4/4. This is vintage, where the game should be close to wrapped up with 5 permanent sources of mana.

Wow, I just saw this and I feel personally attacked. Brian Kelly and I will durdle as much as we want, thank you very much.

More seriously, I established the scope of the comparison along the lines of value and mana generation, not vintage playability. The purpose of the comparison was to help people conceptualize why the card is seeing so much play in formats like Pioneer and Modern. Pointing out things outside of the scope does not invalidate the comparison and does not really add much. I'm pretty sure most people are able to process that Omnath does not have haste, is a 3/2, is card #50 in Shards of Alara, and had a different artist. It is not incredibly useful to compare these metrics as Bloodbraid Elf sits in play as a 3/2 while Omnath continues to generate life, mana, and potential damage as the game progresses, giving each a different functional role. Also, I think both Dominic Domingo and Chris Rahn did a great job on the artwork for each of the cards despite different styles.

@chubbyrain1

This card seems like it will get banned in Standard. Just insane to have 9 mana if you played it on turn 4 or have it come down for free on that turn 5.

I agree the Sylvan Library interaction is great. The interaction with Wrenn and Six is alone is also pretty crazy. Also just blocking for any of your planeswalkers is great (4/4 > 3/3 for Oko). Generating an absurd amount of life + mana is also great. This card does so many great things.

The mana cost isn't all that prohibitive in the right deck. Deathrite + an on-color mox (4/5 moxes are on-color for this) lets you play it on turn 2. On turn 3 with a fetch land you now have 9 mana. That lets you power out pretty much anything you can think of (okay not Griselbrand), and even drop multiple planeswalkers in one turn.

last edited by vaughnbros

@vaughnbros

Yeah, to be clear, I don't think cards have to be the next reckoning in Vintage.

I have a very low threshold to play cards I find interesting and this card certainly meets that criteria. I just tried to share a bit of why I thought it was interesting and how I intended to explore it.

If the standard we are aiming for is interesting creature that could do powerful things and is not completely unplayable then Omnath certainly hits the mark. His effect can be very good, even if it as I suspect frequently isn’t, the effect when combined with library is a great value engine. I agree with that idea so much I tried to build something with him. I can not find a shell that is comp viable and works for Omnath and I strongly suspect none exists but it certainly could be a pice of a fun rouge deck and maybe even steal some wins. And in the end it is always possible that some clever mind see how to do what I cannot and makes this guy viable.

This + Dr. Shaman + Coalition Victory can win the game on the spot, and just requires a fetchland after those 2 are in play.

4 Omnath
4 Dr. Shaman
4 Coalition Victory
10-12 Force of Blah blah
Restricted list goodies
X fetches
2 of each blue dual

That's where I would start, because it's fun, surprising, and might win a game or 2.

@serracollector if you're trying for coalition victory, you want some nonblue duals to fetch, so it's possible to win on 3 lands rather than 4

Blue green may not be a bad axis to set the mana base up on as green pays for oko deathrite library and omnath and blue is blue. That would allow one to win on 3 with minimal disruption to colors.

last edited by Botvinik

Currently 3-0(6-1) in the Vintage leagues.

Finding things to do with Omnath mana has not been difficult, nor has been triggering Landfall. I think I punted game 1 against Dredge but that was going to be rough anyway. Omnath gaining me 50 or so life through blocks and triggers was important but I misunderstood some key interactions that proved critical and prevented me from decking the opponent. It was a really neat game and Omnath was certainly more impactful than a Planeswalker that would have died to Ichorids.

The way I determine a card's "playability" is to try a build the ideal deck for a card. I incorporate as many synergistic elements as I can think of and that are reasonable to include so that even a single copy in a deck can work as well as theoretically possible. If a card does not perform well even in that ideal circumstance, that's when I start to question the card's viability (though of course one has to consider if the shell was really ideal and if it could be improved).

To that end, I am wondering what the deck you tried looked like @Botvinik?

Also, I beat a Belcher deck with the Omnath deck. That should put an end to the Belcher vs Omnath debate.

@chubbyrain1

  1. belcher v omnath was never the debate the debate was is belcher a real deck.

  2. if that is what it takes for you to declare case closed you should be attaching even bigger small sample size riders than I do.

  3. 5 color control I ended up with main deck stony silence because I cut moxen to make space for my expanded land base. 8 forces 2 vigors in the board for shops. 2 libraries 2 jaces 1 dack 3 okos 1 wren and six 2 ugin 1 narset and some paths. Had to shave 2 preordains to make space for petal and the second delve spell. 4 Omnaths and the big plan was the turn after omanth to fetch, crack, Ugin although I will admit that may have been a bit greedy.

It is possible -2 omnath -2 stony -2 ugin -1 land +5 mox +2 preordain is correct but when I played the deck that way it felt like a 4c walkers deck where
a) I have no wastelands.
b) My mana is worse.

last edited by Botvinik

Thing that crushed me

  1. my stax winrate felt close to 0 the deck was impressively bad against golos stax. Given I am quite solid stax player and I have never played this deck before.

  2. doomsday, my deck is so much worse than theirs it hurts they are faster and have more counter magic. It was a slaughter.

  3. aggro shops, my preferred aggro shops list main decks sundering titans in the flex slots so the results may have been skewed but the matchup felt bad. Even with the rods their creatures are bigger and better than mine and sometimes all my lands disappear.

  4. oath, 4 main deck pyros and a pair of flusters with 2 more in the board is just catastrophic. In addition there is no real god plan to beat the oath creatures that is not race with mentor or resolve ugin for Niv. It is just really hard to win without throwing the game. Although I will note this matchup is not as bad as the others this felt winnable but unfavored.

  5. standstill, the anti blue deck blue deck is good against my blue deck what a surprise.

last edited by Botvinik

Nice, Matt! I will look forward to list whenever you are ready to share.

I don't know why you would cut moxen to add more 4+ drops to a deck. That doesn't make any sense. This card plays very well with moxen as almost all of them are on-color for it. The ideal scenario as I laid out would be to put yourself into a position to drop it on turn 2, and then have a huge turn 3.

At least one of these lists better have Coalition Victory or riot!

@vaughnbros

I cut moxes because I went up to 25 land. I am not saying it was right but there was a reason.

To be clear the issue was not I could not find a reasonable list and spot in an omnath or 2 and have the deck not get significantly worse. The issue was I could not find a deck where omnath felt better than more good walkers or main deck moat. So I tried to build an omnath centric deck. I think the card is fully playable but I was having trouble finding a place where other cards did not just feel like better options.

last edited by Botvinik

I mean, you are basically playing a Legacy deck at that point...

@vaughnbros said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

I mean, you are basically playing a Legacy deck at that point...

You know you are kind of not wrong. Not a actually but closer than is probably wise.

To be fair to legacy for a while the best deck in vintage was the worse version of a legacy deck.

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