[ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation


Respectfully, no. Or in a more helpful response not in the list I am playing. Manaless dread return based dredge decks depending on how they are built may not even run force of vigors main deck this was the deck type I was referring to although I will admit I could have been more clear about that.

@chubbyrain1 I think when you post "5-0 in vintage challenge with Omnath" people read that as "I 5-0'd because of Omnath," and that's where the pointing out that running a singleton in an otherwise solid Lutri deck doesn't mean Omnath got you the 5-0. I think you agree with that statement, but are upset people are skeptical. You list your performance to draw attention, but understand that it implies the performance was due to this card. If you built a 4x Omnath deck that ran spells all complimentary to Omnath and won the majority of games through Omnath, then THAT is an endorsement of Omnath being a vintage force. But running as a singleton, winning 5 games, and noting one of its strengths is that it pitches to FoW...that's not the strongest endorsement. I get it - it's a good card in the right situations. It cantrips, it's blue, it has a body. It can ramp mana and deal damage in the right situation. It's not a BAD card. But the framing of the post with your trophy meme and all comes out as "I 5-0d twice solely because of Omnath!" That seems just wrong.

@thewhitedragon69 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

@chubbyrain1 I think when you post "5-0 in vintage challenge with Omnath" people read that as "I 5-0'd because of Omnath,"

I did not read it this way, for the record. I choose to read the words people write as written.

@revengeanceful The implication is certainly there, though. If he wrote it just to state he played a card, with no implication of merit, he could have said "5-0d with Lutri/FoW/Island" and equally stated banal factuality. Being in an Omnath thread and using his record tied to the card, certainly implies the wins were in fact due to the card.

I wrote that I designed a deck specifically around a card and am now 10-0 with it. I did not argue that I am 10-0 because of that card. That is a poor interpretation of what was asserted. This deck was meant to highlight several interactions and mana sinks that worked favorably with Omnath even as a single copy. You ignored everything else I presented but the record and meme.

last edited by chubbyrain1

Stating that that is the logical implication of chubby's post is clearly a bridge too far, but acting like such an inference is highly unreasonable, especially with the 5-0 being held up in the omnath thread itself, is also an aggressive stance, to put it kindly.

Well he just got hit with the ban hammer in a bunch of other formats so clearly a powerful card...


I mean standard and historic are pretty similar. And who knows what brawl is. If it were actually banned across multiple formats, such as modern and legacy, the power would be more evident.


It won the 100+ person Modern Challenge.

Third in a recent Pioneer Challenge

Adam Yurchick just wrote an article entitled Is Omnath, Locus of Creation the Best Creature Ever?


Omnath, Locus of Creation might not be the most powerful creature ever, nor the most efficient nor versatile, but it really does seem like the best.

As for creatures banned in Standard and (Modern or Legacy), it's literally Stoneforge Mystic, which is currently unbanned in Modern without an issue (card is only mediocre). Requiring a creature be banned in multiple formats is an absurd criterion for card evaluation. Mentor and Lodestone Golem aren't banned in any formats. Lavinia isn't really even played in other formats.

It's like saying Deathrite Shaman and Golgari Grave-Troll are the only good creatures...


On the positive side, I agree that Deathrite is definitely the best creature of all time relative to other 1 drops. Its outrageous how much better it is than other options at that slot.


I agree with you. I think Omnath being banned in standard has nothing to do with Vintage.

But if it were banned in legacy or modern, I’d have a good reason to assume it’s a really good card.

last edited by LieNielsen

Is mentor not still widely considered the best creature ever?


In Vintage maybe. At least 1 copy of Mentor is legal in every format though. So without mana rocks, he's not nearly as good.

To say that any creature is the "best" ever is a bit hyperbolic. Amongst the best sure, but since creatures all fit different roles it's really a false proposition.

Saying lightning bolt is the best Burn spell in the game is very different than saying it is the best spell in the game. Omnath may actually be the best at his role, which seems to be a midrange value finisher, but it's not like shops is going to run him.

Black lotus is largely considered the best card in the game, and even that does not get played in every deck. It's all subjective and it is kinda a stupid point to discuss. A 4 mana, 4 color creature (and one of the colors is not black which is probably worse still) that does not win the game on the spot is still a tough sell to me, especially considering we have a banned creature in the format in lurris (I know he has since changed.)

Tangent time, Ancestral Recall is the best card in the game. Good in every situation. Versatility of cards matters, and that makes Black Lotus an inferior card (since its only good when you can use the mana).

Bannings/restrictions in other formats indicate a cards power level on at least some of the dimensions of the game. There are some that are unique to some formats (like Lodestone with Mishra's Workshop, or Monastery Mentor with Moxen), but others are so powerful that they transcend that power level.

This card got hit in Standard very quickly. I wouldn't assume that means it won't get hit in every other format in the coming months.

I disagree that ancestral is the best card in magic. At least in the context of played games. I think the best card in magic is Bazaar of Baghdad. It is a single card that commands something on the order of half to a third of all sideboard slots in vintage. There is not other card where a reasonable if not tier (and certainly tier at points in the past) deck can mull to 3 look at their hand, see one and 2 completely random cards and say yah I am probably favored. No other card in any format I am aware of is a compulsory mull to one for and I am not aware of such a card at any point in the past either.

You're all wrong. Peek is the best card. It just won a vintage challenge as a singleton. It's blue, so it pitches to force of will, it cantrips, just like omnath, and it is synergistic with other cards in the deck. The card probably only appeared in a third of games played and was likely pitched to force in about half of those games, but being a singleton in a Vintage Challenge winning list is clearly the bar for a card being good. I was considering nominating "island" from that same list, as it has synergies with all the fetchlands, but it doesn't cantrip, so Peek gets the nod here. 5-0 VC win with a singleton, checks all the boxes.

@botvinik said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

I can not find a shell that is comp viable and works for Omnath and I strongly suspect none exists but it certainly could be a pice of a fun rouge deck and maybe even steal some wins.

@Thewhitedragon69 I posted my record because of this statement. I told you it wasn't the crux of my argument but apparently you didn't grasp that...

This thread...

@lienielsen said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

So in conclusion all you’re really getting here is a cantrip 4/4, which is good enough for limited, but not Vintage.


I think it’s probably good enough in Standard as well.

@lienielsen said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:


I agree with you. I think Omnath being banned in standard has nothing to do with Vintage.

But if it were banned in legacy or modern, I’d have a good reason to assume it’s a really good card.

Can't wait for the follow up: Alright, it's banned in every format, WotC bought back every copy, set them on fire, and gave every player a holographic Black Lotus as compensation. I guess the card was decent.

@chubbyrain1 said in [ZRN] Omnath, Locus of Creation:

This thread...

Seriously. I'm confused why anybody has such an adamant stance that this card is bad. There is no point in the game where Omnath won't be functioning as you want it to and at the very worst it replaces itself. Also I can't imagine you want more than 2 in even the most dedicated of decks (even then 2 might be rough), so if you are a results-oriented person I'm not sure why singleton results don't count.

  • 120
  • 9585