My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list

I’ve always wanted power nine. I was lucky to win some back when they were “reasonable”. But even then I just sold them because the value was too great. I still want power now, but it’s just too expensive. I can try and get a piece within the year, but it’s almost as if the price will just increase by the time I can afford what it costs today. I think a lot of people especially vintage players are in the same situation.

My idea for a casual format to try is #1 All sets: Alpha-current are legal

However, #2 all reserved list cards are banned.

I know this significantly changes Vintage in some major ways, but what other choice is there? It seems like the only way to both capture the motivation for vintage where you can play any card from any set, but it removes a significant monetary requirement. When you walk up to someone on the street and ask them to play “magic”, chances are they’re not going to have a full set of power 9. I think this format would capture a greater audience potentially than the current legacy/vintage structure.

And again, I love power 9. But the cost of the cards just don’t make any sense. No reasonable person would want to get into this format if it wasn’t for mtgo and proxies

@lienielsen said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

When you walk up to someone on the street and ask them to play “magic”, chances are they’re not going to have a full set of power 9.

they won't have this either. they will have standard, edh, or not know what formats are.

So what is the selling point of this over legacy?

Most vintage decks die instantly because they no longer have the tools that enabled them to be a deck. The most degenerate things are still viable from current legacy, including the slew of blue decks that use no reserve list cards outside of dual lands which can be swapped out for basics and shocks. A few decks like elves or lands die on the vine because they do not have Cradle or Tabernacle anymore. Invariably you then have to ban/restrict certain cards anyway because we know they are too strong like Mental Misstep or Arcum's Astrolabe.

As far as I see it by creating this format you really just get much closer to legacy than you do an alternate vintage. I would sooner think moving vintage to a singleton format would be better, but obviously that does not help with the price issue at all.

@lienielsen said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

When you walk up to someone on the street and ask them to play “magic”

When you walk up to someone on the street and ask them to play magic, they think you're talking about sleight of hand.

@protoaddict

It’s an alternate to legacy because of the cost of dual lands and other reserved list cards such as Lion’s Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, etc.

@lienielsen said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

@protoaddict

It’s an alternate to legacy because of the cost of dual lands and other reserved list cards such as Lion’s Eye Diamond, Mox Diamond, City of Traitors, etc.

The difference here though is there are very few decks in legacy that flat out require reserve list cards like vintage does and there are lists that function perfectly well without any (Burn). The dual lands are probably the most ubiquitous cards from the RL and they exist in multiple lists, but outside of that most of the RL cards are limited to 1-2 decks. The ones you mentioned are probably the most prominent after the duals and the only decks playing them are either problematic to begin with or just people trying to show off their wallets.

Now personally I think if the problem you want to fix is LEGACY, then the better route is to just ban some stuff from Legacy. Give every dual land the axe, make people play shocks with their fetches and force them to think about the mana they play. Ban LED, no deck that plays with it does anything healthy in the format, let it be a vintage and cEDH staple. I don't think leaving City of Traitors in the format is really the thing that is oppressive to people joining your format.

I don't think WOTC trying to juggle another all sets eternal format when they cannot manage 1 all sets eternal format is a great solve for anything.

@protoaddict said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

@lienielsen said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

I don't think WOTC trying to juggle another all sets eternal format when they cannot manage 1 all sets eternal format is a great solve for anything.

That’s the point. They can’t handle legacy or vintage and the players can’t afford the $10,000+ to play. My proposed format could replace both.

@lienielsen said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

That’s the point. They can’t handle legacy or vintage and the players can’t afford the $10,000+ to play. My proposed format could replace both.

I think conflating these 2 formats is incorrect and trying to create one format to replace both of them that is in effect neither of them will not work, full stop. People playing legacy are not just people who cannot afford all the vintage cards, and vice versa. Each audience is unique and wants different things of the formats.

Vintage players want to play vintage because of the availability of these powerful cards, even as singleton. You take that away from the format completely and you lose the whole reason the format exists.

I actually like the idea of the format but I don't think you have any hope of getting it mainstream, you have both the new format issue and the deeply unintuitive rules problem to overcome. However if you ever run a MTGO tournament of it please post on here I would love the chance to take a swing.

You just have to take WotC out of the equation for anything - making format X, restricting/unrestricting Y, making rules change for Z. If you want a new format, have at it. Grow it locally and see if you can spread it through various chat groups. WotC will never do anything to "fix" anything that's before Modern.

With Modern Masters and full reprint control/no RL on anything post-8th ed, this is the cutoff where they have full monetary control...and that's ALL WotC cares about. All these special sets and crossovers and even their "social justice/diversity" sets are nothing but a money grab playing on public interest. They also make 95% of their money in Standard, so expending any effort on anything that won't make them huge wads of cash is not on their radar. Even pre-modern which is already a thing and doesn't has RL issues isn't popular or money-generating enough for WotC to give two farts about. They barely care about Vintage or Legacy.

Just do your own thing and bypass WotC altogether - whether that's formats, B/R lists, proxies, tourneys, etc.

Yeah that was my plan: to just try and play it casually like OS or premodern. I’m not trying to convince wotc to do anything. Although I think maintaining formats that depend on the reserved list is very stupid of them

I know it's been said over and over again, but if your goal is JUST that you want a format like Vintage but cheap, proxies are the answer. Yes, there are people who really just don't like proxies (maybe you're one of them, in which case, fair enough). But if you just want to get 8 people together to play a tournament, it's going to be a lot easier to find 8 people who don't mind proxies than it will be to find 8 people who are willing to dedicate however many hours of playtesting for a completely untested/unbalanced format. If you're looking for a competitive environment you're asking people to dedicate months before a format settles. And make no mistake, the format you've described is still expensive. Modern decks look like they're around $500-$1000 right now, which is pocket change next to a Vintage deck, but still a lot to ask for a format that may disappear after the first tournament.

But I don't want to be discouraging. I LOVE player-invented formats. If you think there's some strategic/gameplay difference that's unique about the format you've described, and that difference appeals to you, then I think that's great and I wish you luck! But if you just feel like you're missing out on Vintage without owning power, don't worry! You're already part of the Vintage community! I haven't used my "real" power in a long time and I don't think that's made the game any less fun for me.

@thewhitedragon69 said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

They also make 95% of their money in Standard, so expending any effort on anything that won't make them huge wads of cash is not on their radar.

I don't think this is true anymore for a number of reasons.

  • I think EDH is actually the biggest mover of cards now, and the reason cards get cracked.
  • I believe they have higher margins and lower R&D costs on commander decks than a standard set. Likely the same for a masters set.
  • Direct sales for Secret Lairs plus virtually no R&D costs, just art, means they probably have the highest profit margins on these, even if they sell less of them.

The main point still stands that WOTC really has no financial incentive to support older formats other than maintaining the appearance of good will towards enfranchised players. It would be bad for them if they suddenly did not have a format that supported cards that are banned everywhere else and would likely affect the secondary market on the cards, but all things equal that is more of a PR thing than a profits thing.

@protoaddict

No, I spent hundreds of dollars on MTGO and continue to pour money into the hole. I know if they took down legacy, vintage, and modern cues I would just quit and play cocatrice instead ,and I think a lot of people are like me.

last edited by Botvinik

@botvinik said in My idea for a new vintage format. Non-reserved list:

@protoaddict

No, I spent hundreds of dollars on MTGO and continue to pour money into the hole. I know if they took down legacy, vintage, and modern cues I would just quit and play cocatrice instead ,and I think a lot of people are like me.

MTGO is a vast minority of the player base considering arena is a thing, plus EDH via webcam. I mean it seems to me that queue times for most formats on MTGO outside of sealed are pretty long lately.

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