I wish I would have considered this card years ago for Pitch Long, Grim Long, and TPS brews. In the modern Vintage metagame, I would have to consider it for DPS and possibly Doomsday. (Dark Ritual decks)

Most of the time this card isn’t going to win on the spot. But what I like about it is that it’s a permanent-based draw engine. It should be countered by the opponent if they have a counter. So it would be in the “bomb” or “threat” territory. Ritual decks would be the natural homes since Dark and Cabal Rituals can mitigate the initial mana cost. Given a turn 1 Duress, this should reliably land on turn 2 and provide a path to victory by drawing a ton of cards. Similar to Necropotence. Not as good, but it seems good enough as a 1-of. It won’t eat a Red Blast or a Flusterstorm. Just an alternative engine for getting ahead. I’ve never considered trying it until now.

yawgmoth's bargain isn't even restricted anymore

This card is not a great fit for how modern doomsdy decks are designed as we tend to run very low land and mana in general counts so a 4 drop we cant pitch is not a good inclusion. The card is not a write off but would require more aggressive deck shifts than simply sliding it into a flex slot.

@blindtherapy said in [LEG] Greed:

yawgmoth's bargain isn't even restricted anymore

Well I think Bolas’ Citadel is better than Bargain, so I or anyone would probably play at least 2 Citadels before the first Bargain.

Greed on the other hand serves a very different role. Since it costs 2 less mana to bring into play, it serves the roll of a weaker 4-mana threat that can be deployed when you only have 4 mana. I have seen the power of 4 mana threats in DPS 2 years ago when Karn DPS won Asian World Champs. It’s just nice having a good mana curve in my opinion.

I think it's just more of the fact that it's not truly a 4-mana draw engine. Each draw costs B and 2 life...where as all the other options mentioned are mana free. You need to spend 5 mana and 2 life to draw even 1 card...so something like Necrologia seems a more efficient reload - and that card is terrible.

I think any one-shot 3-4 mana draw 3+ is better here. Even a lesser card like Divination (I assume you're in blue too) gives you an immediate 3 cards for no extra mana or life. If you're paying 8 mana and 8 life over multiple turns to get a single card better than Divination, that's bad imo.

@thewhitedragon69

It’s not 5 mana draw 1 though. It’s 4 mana up front and then 1 black for 1 card at your leisure as long as it stays in play. Hypothetically this could convert unused mana every turn into cards OR just draw as many cards as you can over a turn or 2. That should be good game. No other card mentioned does that for just 4 mana. It isn’t 5 mana. It isn’t 6 mana. It’s 4 mana and will never require any mana beyond 4. I never mentioned anything about blue or blue sorceries. This is a black card that requires black mana that is conveniently generated with Rituals. You mentioned Divination. Divination draws 2 cards. Greed draws up to 9 cards... and that doesn’t mean it costs 13 mana.

You should at least be able to see the fact that if you untap with Greed in play, you’re probably going to win the game because of Greed. I mean “EoT Draw 7” is nothing to scoff at. Cannot say the same thing for Divination, Fact or Fiction, or whatever else you want to talk about. Especially when considering immunity to the most popular counterspells

last edited by LieNielsen

@lienielsen said in [LEG] Greed:

You should at least be able to see the fact that if you untap with Greed in play, you’re probably going to win the game because of Greed. I mean “EoT Draw 7” is nothing to scoff at. Cannot say the same thing for Divination, Fact or Fiction, or whatever else you want to talk about. Especially when considering immunity to the most popular counterspells

I mean, this is all true, but you're making some pretty hefty assumptions in that "EoT Draw 7" example - namely, this implies that you have 7 black mana and 14 life to spare. A lot of cards would win you the game in that situation, including some mentioned previously (Bargain, Citadel).

@lienielsen I guess I named the wrong card - I was thinking of the 2UU draw 3 (Concentrate). Regardless, 4 mana for a do nothing that turn is a bit slow. And the "draw 9" also comes at the expense of 18 life. That means fetches and FoW add a toll. Yes, you can cast this, untap, and then pump BBBB+8 life into it EoT for 4 cards over 2 turns (or dumping rituals into it, which basically trades a card for a card), but then you have done nothing for 2 turns except draw 4 cards and lose 8 life. If you are playing a deck like pitch long or DPS, you want big value or explosiveness in a card - like necropotence, citadel, memory jar, or the like.

If you are just looking to lower the curve on card draw and stay entirely in black, night's whisper, treacherous blessing, infernal contract are all things, and not really that good. Infernal Contract is at worst 10 life and comes off a single ritual. For the same 4 cards, you pay 8 life and 3B+BBBB over two turns with greed. If IC isn't playable in the same deck, I fail to see how Greed is as good or better.

And vs matches like aggroshops or vengevine or dredge where your life will be quickly pressured, IC can get you 4 cards for as little as 1 life if they bumrush you down to 2 life...Greed wouldn't net you a single card in that case.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

On average, I am pretty sure in any Ritual Based storm list, even Dark Confidant trumps Greed. In life cost, mana cost, permanent draw, and as a threat. In the current metagame it might even be less likely to die, seems to be more Force of Vigors than bolts and plows from what I've seen of late. Greed is great in Old School, but there are so many better options now.

I literally have no idea why you would consider Greed in Vintage. It's VERY underpowered. There are so many things better than it that I can't even list them all. Even the unplayed Fact of Fiction is better. Or Ad Nauseam, or Dark Bargain or Moonlight Bargain or Mazemind Tome or whatever.

Edit: I mean, you know that at 4 mana you can play Jace, right? Or the above mentioned Karn?

last edited by fsecco

@fsecco I think the OP is looking to stay in black and be a cheaper-than-bargain card-drawing bomb. I like Infernal Contract myself as a 3-mana draw-4 that isn't limited by your life total (unless you are at 1)...and that's pretty unplayable.

Greed has a greater chance of seeing play in Vintage than Octavia Living Thesis. These other cards you’re mentioning don’t matter. Not one of you has ever resolved Greed in a game of magic and it shows. Sad.

last edited by LieNielsen

@lienielsen said in [LEG] Greed:

Not one of you has ever resolved Greed in a game of magic and it shows. Sad.

This seems like an unnecessary attack. I've definitely resolved my fair share of Greeds in my day. I just don't think it's a relevant card in Vintage these days. I'd love to be proven wrong though. No one's stopping you from sketching out a list, testing it, and sharing your results.

I used to use greed in my zur deck because I couldn't find my copy of necro and was to stubborn to buy another. This attack is unwarranted.

@revengeanceful It's okay. The OP found what they think is a gem. We all think it's a dud and explained why. They clearly don't want discussion or critique, only praise for finding an unheralded diamond in the rough. Let him run greed in his list and wish it was just about any other bomb or cheap draw spell...he'll come around.

Actually, he'll likely resolve greed in games where he's already got the win in the bag and then be like "See, Greed is awesome!"

A good tester would examine each time he drew greed and wished it were anything else (or if it was an irrelevant draw because he's already won), or if Greed were the one card he needed to win in that situation. But people don't do that with pet cards. They win with "Keeper-running-sedge-troll" and claim the troll won the match, when in reality the other 59 cards won and the troll was irrelevant.

I’m not attacking. I don’t play with creatures. I am not a creature.

It’s just that if you’re comparing Greed to Jace the Mind Sculptor, Read the Bones, or Yawgmoth’s Bargain and suggesting Greed is unplayable because of those cards, you’re not understanding the scenarios in which Greed is a good card.

My goal is not to receive praise, but to share knowledge and enthusiasm for this gem from Legends. Comparisons with Moonlight Bargain or Fact or Fiction don’t really encapsulate what Greed does.

You can continue referring to me as the OP as if I can’t read and you’re having a private conversation with your buddies. It honestly doesn’t bother me and I won’t be deterred from posting and talking about my ideas in the future.

It’s just a little contradictory that some people would like to set up a Rube Goldberg contraption every time something like Octavia Living Thesis is printed — to somehow find some narrow case where it would work, while simultaneously be completely dismissive of someone else’s enthusiasm for an older card.

last edited by LieNielsen

I think Greed is "almost there", but the B mana cost per card drawn is what makes it unplayable. If it were like Necropotence and didn't require the mana payment, but otherwise were the same as its actual wording, it would be pretty damn good. I tried running it like 12 years ago and it didn't quite make the grade. 4-mana permanents which draw cards pretty much need to be planeswalkers nowadays.

@lienielsen

OP is just short for Original Poster.

It's not that Greed is horrible - it's darn good in OS and slower formats. But it is too slow for Vintage. Sure, cards like bargain and FoF aren't comparable because they are more expensive or blue (even if they are more game breaking than Greed when resolved). You can dismiss them in that context.

But then when we mention cards like Night's Whisper, Dark Confidant, or Infernal Contract...they ARE black and cheaper.

DC maybe you can dismiss since it has to survive a turn to even draw 1, and can easily smack you for 5+ life on 1 card. But it does chip away at your opponent's life and comes down on turn 1 sans ritual - so there's that.

Night's Whisper/Read the Bones - don't draw you more than 2 cards ever...so though they are cheaper and set up your win faster, they may not be as good long game (if a long game even matters for a storm or ritual-based deck).

But I think you'll have a hard time explaining away Infernal Contract. For BBB you get 4 cards NOW at the cost of 10 or less life, and usually it's like 6 or less life most games. Greed is 3B + BBBB + minimum 8 life, usually over 2 turns (or trading rituals for cards which is not great CA). The ONLY situation where Greed is better is if you are locked under an opponent's restricted Narset/Leovold/Spirit of Labyrinth and can draw only 1 card a turn on their turn. When a card is only better than another card in a niche situation that rarely occurs - the lesser card is the worse option. In this case, IC > Greed...and IC is unplayed (though I don't think unplayable). So I have a hard time thinking Greed is a Vintage gem when a better card already doesn't make the cut.

last edited by Thewhitedragon69

@thewhitedragon69

Normally you are snappy but this is very good analysis and explanation.

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