@wappla Thanks for the awesome write up Wappla, look forward to trying your latest suggestions. I think the major improvement is the cutting of Temple from the Mana base - makes the deck far more consistent. Bravo for that innovation.
Been mostly playing other formats the past few months but look forward to playing this going forward in Vintage. And trying out stuff like Prelate, Ballista and anything else not mentioned above.
Have you ever considered Palace Jailer over Fairgrounds Warden, or is the mana cost too much of an issue?
@msg67183 it's probably fine, but it doesn't exist online.
@wappla awesome write up
I've played W eldrazi and always felt like TKS was the worst card in the deck.
I also agree with new Thalia. 4 seems solid, and I like Linvala and the Fairgrounds Warden is also great in some mu's
But the best thing with W Eldrazi is the fact the game 1 mu's vs dredge and Oath are amazing
@msg67183 it's probably fine, but it doesn't exist online.
That sucks. Fairgrounds Warden is the best option there? Seems meh imo.
When you consider that it usually costs the same as Swords to Plowshares in a Thorn mirror (the matchups you want it most in) without Plow's drawback and with the bonus of a 1/3 body (hard enough to kill with Ballista and big enough to block Factories and Revokers), yeah I think so. Unlike Path, Plow, or Dismember, it can just be cast and attack in irrelevant matchups. Note that it combos with Priest the same way Displacer does, making it better than this effect usually is.
All that said, whether you want any removal at all is definitely an open question.
Can't believe you want to play dudes with WW in their casting costs...
I'll give that fairground a try.
I tried copter in shop and didn't like it because it was pretty slow and hardly beat by revoker (and could not use one to remove the other one I was drawing....)
I'm playing like two cards with WW and they cost four or five mana. If you haven't drawn double-white by the time you are casting them, then you have drawn such a density of other effects you are winning anyway.
The matchups I want them most, I also have Ghost Quarters post-board. These can fetch another white source if necessary.
While I'm not on Copters either at the moment (specifically because everyone has a ton of artifact removal and/or Stony Silence in response to a correct expectation of how good Ravager Shops are) please note that Copter is a different card in a shops deck with 25 mana sources and White Eldrazi, which has 28 or 29. This mana base is the endemic problem of the archetype, you flood a lot but also can be pretty weak to Wasteland. Copter is good at attacking this problem while being a fine card otherwise. You also play 4 copies of two different legends and have matchup-dependent hatebears like Revoker and Priest. Looting is just drawing a card in this deck.
There was $30 entry tournament at The Geekery HQ, in Astoria, NY this weekend.
I think there were 16 players, but the final standings had 14 players. Maybe some players dropped and I just did not pay attention.
5 rounds, cut to top 4.
Lands-20:2 Karakas5 Plains
Artifact-14:1 Mox Jet1 Mox Ruby1 Sol Ring
For some reason I cannot find my notepad, so I do not have the play by play, but I will list the matchups and the results.
R1: Sylvan Mentor (2-0? I don't quite remember, I apologize.) (ended up 4-1)
R2: Bomberman Oath (2-0)
R3: Jeskai Mentor (2-1)
R4: White Eldrazi (1-2) (This person had a better sideboard for the mirror, and went 5-0.)
R5: Ravager Ballista Shops (2-1)
My opponent for Rd 4 was 1st in standings, I was 2nd, another Shops player was 3rd, and my opponent for Rd 1 was 4th. Upon reaching Top 4, we all decided to split the prize, and as such, there is no report for Top 4 matches.
I did not play any 1 drops (except Sol Ring) intentionally to blank Mental Misstep. This hurt in my mirror match, as I had no StP for opposing Displacer. Opp won games 2 and 3 due to him wrecking my lands and then using Displacer / Containment combo to clear my board. Both games 2 and 3 his life total was low, but I could not kill him fast enough before he was able to use Displacer to win.
I ended up sideboarding in the Fairgrounds Warden in every single game. I was desperate for more removal, as the Displacer combo did not show up in most games. It worked very well in the Bomberman Oath matchup. Game 2 I ended up using Thought-Knot seer to exile Auriok Salvagers in opp's hand, then he Oath'd a Blazing Archon. I used Warden to exile the Blazing Archon, and opponent did not Oath for the rest of the game.
- I believe my sideboard needs a little work. HOWEVER, THIS FEELING IS PRIMARILY DUE TO MY INEXPERIENCE IN VINTAGE.
Rest in Peace was useless, at least for the matchups I had, but it is vital for the Dredge matchup.
Leyline of Sancticty is for Oath and Tendrils.
Stony Silence and Kataki are for Shops and Paradoxical Outcome matchups.
I wish the Fairgrounds Wardens were in the maindeck.
I know @wappla has had success with White "Eldrazi", you should talk to him about it. He cut Thought Knot Seer and Eldrazi Temple from the list.
@aceofjacks Nice list, looks very solid (apart from all the W cards in the SB).
How come you cut Ancient Tomb? Too much damage in the mirror and against Shops?
On your SB, I think I would play Null Rod/Grafdiggers over Stony Silence/Rest in Peace, just to ease the W mana burden.
Leyline seems alright, but that might be better as Mental Misstep, since it's much easier to cast. Aegis of the Gods and Spirit of the Labyrinth are other options (the latter also useful against Mentor), but they're more vulnerable to removal.
@msg67183 Cutting TKS is maybe fine in this meta, but doesn't that make Cavern of Souls much worse?
I've seen @wappla 's version but I feel like you might as well just cut the Eldrazi entirely and play Human/Angel Stompy then.
I prioritized the ability to get White mana over Ancient Tombs, as I did not think Ancient Tomb was that important. Adding a 15 white card Sideboard meant that I needed to have White mana in every opnening hand if possible. The only thing that NEEDS multiple colorless are the Eldrazi. With any other land + 1 Mox, I can cast most of the 2 drops in the deck.
I went for enchantments over artifacts for multiple reasons.
1- No Grafdigger's Cage or Pithing Needle so as to blank Mental Misstep. I already have 1 Sol Ring as the ONLY target, and I like to make my opponents have as many dead cards as possible.
2- No Null Rod, as it helps to partially blank cards like Ancient Grudge and Hurkyl's Recall. Not to say that an opponent might actually USE Hurkyl's Recall against me, but hey, you might get lucky against that guy who doesn't know the correct sideboard plan.
3- No Aegis of the Gods or True Believer in an attempt to lessen the effect of Supreme Verdict and Balance, both of which resolved against me when I played this weekend. With Balance, I still have a lock piece on the table, whereas with the creatures, I have nothing but mana sources on the table.
4- I originally had 2 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the sideboard where the 2 Fairgrounds Wardens were, but I made a (literal) last minnute change to add the creature removal in it's place. I chose to lean heavily on Thorn/Thalia effects, and have removal with 3 toughness instead of shutting down card draw. If all your spells cost 3 or 4 mana, then you can spend 3 mana to draw a card, and do nothing for the rest of the turn, pretty much Time Walking yourself.
I consider the mentality of "Mono White Time Walks" when I play this deck. Barring my opponent is playing hyper-control, always having a Force of Will, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, or "insert the right answer at the right time" in EVERY draw step, I am going to get at least 2 free turns against them over the course of the first 5 turns. Turn 1 Thorn/Thalia, turn 2 Thalia 2.0, turn 3 T-K Seer or Reality Smasher, seems like a "nuts" draw for this deck, but it happens more often than you think.
It's almost like a Shops deck, in the sense that you make your opponents spells cost more, make their lands come into play tapped, thus buying you a few extra turns to beat them with dudes. By the time they can stabilize, you have them at less than 6 life. Just push trough the last points of damage if you can.
I agree with hyperborea in the comment of "cut the Eldrazi and play Human/Angel Stompy" if you're removing T-K. A fatty with a Duress is good, and it can finish the game by itself if you get rid of their removal. However, if you're concerned with keeping up the white mana, and not relying on Eldrazi, then Gisela and Linvala are the way to go. They get around Moat, and they are good finishers. Imagine you're playing a Legacy Dragon Stompy deck, with your Thalias and Thorns as the "lock" pieces, and the fliers as the finishers. Besides, this deck has a ton of creature threats. Your opponents can only have so many StP effects in a deck, and they will all cost additional mana. Just keep the pressure on them, and push through the last few points before they stabilize.
@aceofjacks Points 2-4 make sense.
On your first point, I suspect your opponent is sideboarding out Mental Misstep in games 2-3. Also, the decks you bring in Cage against are usually running Wear//Tear/Fragmentize/Nature's Claim rather than Grudge.
What are you thinking about replacing the RIPs with? And how would you fit the Wardens in the maindeck?
I honestly do not know yet. I only play Vintage once a month, if even that. These are just thoughts I had when I was building the deck at 2am the night before the tournament.
I will gladly defer to those who are more experienced in these matters, because they have the game hours to back up those decisions.
If you cut Ancient Tomb, you dramatically decrease your ability to play a Sphere first turn, which is part of the reason to play this deck. That's how you prevent Gush decks from casting a first turn cantrip, and thereby stabilizing their mana base. That can't be right.
Steve I agree with you whole-heartedly. As a person who played "hatebears" read as creature decks without ancient tomb for year, I acknowledge that eldrazi is the better than those decks have ever been. A big part of that is they are playing one of the best unrestricted cards in the format in the form of Tomb. You can't keep up with the power level of blue without ancient tomb.
I cashed the daily yesterday with this list, and Top 16ed the January MTGO P9 event as well. I think this deck is very fun to play:
4 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Lodestone Golem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Reality Smasher
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Walking Ballista
1 Black Lotus
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Strip Mine
3 Containment Priest
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Mental Misstep
2 Null Rod
I've fully moved the Priests into the SB. Eldrazi Displacer already holds it's own weight with it's capacity to blink out Monks, Ballistas, and more...
Against Ravager Shops:
- 2 Null Rod (would like more!)
- 2 GQ
- 2 Dismember
- 4 Thorn
- 1 Trinisphere
- 1 Chalice (on the draw)
- 3 Misstep
- 3 it varies depending on build, but often Revokers...
Against PO Decks:
- 2 Null Rod
- 3 Misstep
- 2 Cages
- 8 Reality Smasher/ Ballista
- 3 Priest
- 3 Cage
- 2 GQ
- 3 Misstep
- 4 Reality Smasher
- 4 TKS
- 3 Revoker
The main reason to play this deck is because it's theoretically one of the best decks you can play against PO strategies and Gush Mentor. Whereas they can simply Hurkyl's a Workshop board, Thalia can't be so bounced, and she is often uncounterable via Cavern as well.
However, because PO decks can attack you from different angles, you'll need cards like Cage to combat Oath post-board. And Null Rod is the final nail.
I've been testing lately with 3 Null Rods in the SB and just 1 GQ, although that weakens you a bit to the Dredge menace :) I think it may be an improvement, as you really want 6 Revoker/Null Rod effects against Ravager Shops.
In skimming this thread, it sounds like Shops is the worst matchup.
This deck, when I've played against it, seems to have a painfully good game against Oath. What cards are you typically afraid to face (whether in an Oath deck or other deck)?
I got knocked out (at 2-2) of the Power 9 today because of White Eldrazi with main-deck Containment Priest. I'm trying to figure out if this is just a 70-30 bad matchup, or if I have some options at improving the odds.