White Eldrazi



  • @Smmenen In a deck with no draw engine, it's actually immensely valuable to have a card that does both well. Thalia is an all-around all-star in a deck full of conditional hatebears. Having a hatebear that hates on every single opponent is a truly unique ability. She is even good against Paradoxical; they are often drawing to the one-outer of Academy. You might prefer Ballista here and Wingmare there, but you will just as often have Ballista when you need Wingmare and Wingmare when you need Ballista. This is the fundamental problem of hatebear decks. Thalia and Smasher are the two most important cards for overcoming this fundamental flaw of the archetype. (Smuggler's Copter is the third, and I've become convinced the best version of Eldrazi does run at least 3 Copter)

    You're also underestimating Thalia's peak. She doesn't single-handedly win either of the following games, but then no card can. The soft advantages you dismiss allow the deck to snowball in ways you're too easily dismissing. Who needs long term advantage when you can just kill people?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLcWS3Dc9Vc
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJ8NwDoLLRY



  • @wappla I've become convinced the best version of Eldrazi does run at least 3 Copter

    That is interesting. In a deck designed to "hate", Copter is essentially the opposite of what you want. It literally does stone nothing for an entire turn and seemingly only gets value when you "2 for 1" your attack phase. Curious why you think it is so vital. Is discarding spare Thalia's that important?



  • The deck isn't designed to hate. It's designed to kill people. It's an aggro deck with anti-combo cards because half the format is combo. So you are an aggro deck with 28 mana sources, and there are some basic issues trying to kill people with 28+ mana sources. Copter helps you cast your five drops and helps you avoid flooding on random bears and extra lands. The evasion is also fantastic at turning Revokers and Priests that can't get through into sources of damage. Copter is a card that has 32/32ed a GP top 8. The last cards to do that are like JTMS and Preordain.



  • @wappla said in White Eldrazi:

    Who needs long term advantage when you can just kill people?

    The games where you can't or don't. The games, for example, where you have to beat with bear or hill giant for many turns. Or they've plowed your biggest threat.

    I understand the point of THC. I just think the games where it is optimal are outweighed by the balance of games where it is not. And the deck should be designed to shore up games where you aren't crushing them, but have to win the hard way or the long game.



  • @wappla said in White Eldrazi:

    The deck isn't designed to hate. It's designed to kill people. It's an aggro deck with anti-combo cards because half the format is combo. So you are an aggro deck with 28 mana sources, and there are some basic issues trying to kill people with 28+ mana sources. Copter helps you cast your five drops and helps you avoid flooding on random bears and extra lands. The evasion is also fantastic at turning Revokers and Priests that can't get through into sources of damage. Copter is a card that has 32/32ed a GP top 8. The last cards to do that are like JTMS and Preordain.

    wappla, what's your take on Walking Ballista in White Eldrazi?



  • I think it's fine. I'm not playing it because:

    • Copter is better and Stony Silence/Null Rod (both your own sideboarded and your opponent's) becomes a concern if you play both.
    • I'd rather not draw Ballistas when I have a Revoker on them against Workshops. And I don't want to try to out Ballista a deck with Workshop and Foundry Inspector.

    That said, Ballista is completely defensible and possibly correct if you are set against playing Copter. If you do want to play Ballista, I would find room in the 75 for a Ranger of Eos and/or Archangel Avacyn.



  • What I like most about Ballista is what I also like most about Displacer: it's a card that is really good when you are mana flooded, which happens every so often. The absolute best Ballista's are the late game Ballista's when you have an absurd amount of mana, and you've held back a Cavern so that you can make a gigantic Ballista uncounterable.

    That said, I like playing Null Rod in the White Eldrazi SB as well, so you use Ballista and Null Rod in different matchups.



  • Yeah, my first thought was that Ballista was an automatic 4-of, but I'm currently testing out Copter instead since you (@wappla) speaks so fondly of it. I also think that Palace Jailer is very interesting and perhaps better than Ballista. It's a draw engine and it's removal (combos very well with Displacer since the exiled creature will stay exiled until your opponent becomes the monarch).

    I don't play TKS either, and I haven't missed it once since I dismissed it.



  • I played 3 matches yesterday against @Stormanimagus on cockatrice (white eldrazi vs hatebears). Thalia was key is like 8 games out of 9. Thalia + mana available was ALWAYS a win. The double loss of tempo is absolutely insane.

    I was playing 3 thalia v1 and 3 thalia v2 which seemed correct to me. this needs way more tests to figure out if the 4/4 "split" is better or not
    However, 4/4 might be right when playing 3 or 4 copter to get ride of extra copies easily
    I like SCopter on the paper but having a turn where i do not affect the board is not something i like in this deck.

    4 eldrazi temple is mandatory as you need gas to activate displacers

    TKS has an impact on both hand & board...
    Playing 0 TKS and 4 Smashers is..... weird.

    How bad is our MUD match up?



  • @CwaM said in White Eldrazi:

    I played 3 matches yesterday against @Stormanimagus on cockatrice (white eldrazi vs hatebears). Thalia was key is like 8 games out of 9. Thalia + mana available was ALWAYS a win. The double loss of tempo is absolutely insane.

    I was playing 3 thalia v1 and 3 thalia v2 which seemed correct to me. this needs way more tests to figure out if the 4/4 "split" is better or not
    However, 4/4 might be right when playing 3 or 4 copter to get ride of extra copies easily
    I like SCopter on the paper but having a turn where i do not affect the board is not something i like in this deck.

    4 eldrazi temple is mandatory as you need gas to activate displacers

    TKS has an impact on both hand & board...
    Playing 0 TKS and 4 Smashers is..... weird.

    How bad is our MUD match up?

    Thalia 2.0 is definitely key in the aggro matchups. Eldrazi vs Eldrazi often comes down to whoever gets down a Thalia 2.0 first. And then an active Displacer.

    I could be convinced that 3 Thalia 2.0 is fine, but I wouldn't go below 4 Thalia 1.0, and I do think that 4 Thalia 2.0 is correct as well.

    I don't agree with Eldrazi Temple (especially if you're not playing TKS). I'd rather have acces to additional white mana, though I guess if you are playing TKS, some number of Eldrazi Temple is correct.



  • If thalia v2.0 is key vs aggro decks, why wouldn't you be playing a 4th one in sde? or are they any dedicated card that is better against aggro?


  • Administrators

    Don't forget that this thread has seen a lot of VERY different lists pasted, and a lot of people talking about very different matchups and metagames. (Hell, when I posted this thread originally, Walking Ballista and Paradoxical Outcome weren't printed yet).

    I think it's pretty obvious that Thalia 2.0 is is good in some situations:

    • you're in a tempo-centric match/board state where being one turn ahead on attackers gives you the win.
    • you're in a situation where first strike makes combat dangerous for the opponent (for me this has been particularly notable with equipment, or in a team-up with Thalia 1.0 against Reality Smashers)
    • you're in a situation where the "comes into play tapped" ability on Thalia does more than usual (e.g. an opponent with a combo that gets shut off by it, like Saheeli+Sun Titan, or Dragon Combo [lulz])

    But it also seems pretty obvious that Thalia 2.0 is bad in some situations:

    • you're in a game state where tempo doesn't matter, or you're far enough behind on tempo that Thalia is worse than a catch-up spell (note that this can be the the case even if the matchup is tempo-centric)
    • your opponent is on a deck that's low on cards that get hit by Thalia (e.g. Paradoxical Outcome which has no creatures and gets most of its mana through artifacts)

    Of course, if people have a different read on the metagame, they think those situations are more or less important, more or less common. If you think that Workshops is already a very good matchup, you're going to place less importance on how good or bad Thalia is against Workshops, even if there's a lot of shops in your meta.

    I think it's useful, in threads like these, to be explicit about the assumptions you're making to come to your conclusion - instead of jumping ahead to "Thalia is definitely a 4-of" ... by getting a handle on WHEN a card is good, and separately, what sort of cards can be run to induce those game states to happen, people can adapt their list to handle the metagame they expect, and solve the problems they have.



  • @CwaM legend glut is brutal in a deck with zero deck manipulation. things compound themselves during mulligans. If you randomly never encounter it then you'll pick up some %, if you randomly end up with awkward 2.0,2.0,1.0,1.0,lnd, land mulligans then you will not win.



  • @nedleeds this is where wappla suggestion of playing smugler's copter comes so you can get ride off the extra copies.



  • @CwaM Copter has it's own issues, Null Rod, needing a dude in a deck with mostly impact dudes (sans maybe a stranded Revoker). But I haven't played copter in Vintage so I'm talking out of my ass. I do know if I felt like 75% of the shop players in my field were packing Ballista I'd be maining Rod or Stony. I think as with every deck design decision in a non-cantrip / draw engine deck you just have to accept some variance. I draw so poorly I rarely even play 4 x Thalia's, this is likely wrong by any measure. However you are really looking at WARP, what are you replacing the excess legend with? The math on a having 2+ of a 4 of in your top 10 cards is about 13%. But it's more complex, given your first one may get countered or removed in short order.



  • I played White Eldrazi at EE to at 5-2 finish, good for 13th and was a win-and-in against Roland for Top 8. My list:

    4 Wasteland
    2 Karakas
    4 Cavern of Souls
    4 Ancient Tomb
    2 Eldrazi Temple
    5 Plains
    1 Strip Mine

    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Black Lotus

    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Chalice of the Void

    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    3 Containment Priest
    4 Phyrexian Revoker
    3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    1 Vryn Wingmare
    3 Eldrazi Displacer
    4 Thought-Knot Seer
    3 Reality Smasher

    Sideboard:

    1 Grafdigger’s Cage
    1 Containment Priest
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Fragmentize
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Mental Misstep
    2 Kataki, War’s Wage
    2 Stony Silence

    Both my loses were to Mentor players who ended up in the Top 8, and as a relatively inexperienced Vintage player, I definitely felt outclassed in those two matches. On the day i was 3-2 against Mentor, 1-0 against each Oath and Dredge.

    The list is near identical to the one I last ran to 5-0 at a local event, with the only change being to the SB, -1 Rest in Peace for +1 Containment Priest. In the future, I'm not sold on the Missteps in the board. They never felt like they were doing enough.

    I managed to dodge Shops all day, which certainly helped, though the sideboard plan of -9 Thorn effects, +2 Fragmentize, +3 Swords to Plowshares, +2 Kataki, +2 Stony Silence has felt good in the past. Game 1 has felt very difficult though.

    Overall, though, the deck felt very strong, and I'll likely be sticking to this more stock list going forward.



  • If I were to build White "Eldrazi" I'd build it like this:

    4 Wasteland
    2 Ghost Quarter
    Strip Mine
    2 Karakas
    5 Plains
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    Black Lotus
    Mox Sapphire
    Mox Jet
    Mox Emerald
    Mox Ruby
    Mox Pearl
    Sol Ring
    Mana Crypt

    3 Containment Priest
    4 Eldrazi Displacer
    4 Reality Smasher
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    4 Walking Ballista
    2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    Chalice of the Void

    Sideboard:
    4 Path to Exile
    2 Disenchant
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Containment Priest
    3 Null Rod
    Trinisphere



  • @msg67183 said in White Eldrazi:

    If I were to build White "Eldrazi" I'd build it like this:

    4 Wasteland
    2 Ghost Quarter
    Strip Mine
    2 Karakas
    5 Plains
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    Black Lotus
    Mox Sapphire
    Mox Jet
    Mox Emerald
    Mox Ruby
    Mox Pearl
    Sol Ring
    Mana Crypt

    3 Containment Priest
    4 Eldrazi Displacer
    4 Reality Smasher
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    4 Walking Ballista
    2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    Chalice of the Void

    Sideboard:
    4 Path to Exile
    2 Disenchant
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Containment Priest
    3 Null Rod
    Trinisphere

    No Phyrexian Revoker?



  • @Griselbrother said in White Eldrazi:

    @msg67183 said in White Eldrazi:

    If I were to build White "Eldrazi" I'd build it like this:

    4 Wasteland
    2 Ghost Quarter
    Strip Mine
    2 Karakas
    5 Plains
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 Cavern of Souls
    Black Lotus
    Mox Sapphire
    Mox Jet
    Mox Emerald
    Mox Ruby
    Mox Pearl
    Sol Ring
    Mana Crypt

    3 Containment Priest
    4 Eldrazi Displacer
    4 Reality Smasher
    4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
    4 Walking Ballista
    2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    Chalice of the Void

    Sideboard:
    4 Path to Exile
    2 Disenchant
    2 Rest in Peace
    2 Grafdigger's Cage
    1 Containment Priest
    3 Null Rod
    Trinisphere

    No Phyrexian Revoker?

    Don't get me wrong, Revoker is a great card, but it basically has to auto name Dack Fayden against blue, and I'm fine with Dack with this current list because they can steal:
    Chalice of the Void, which does nothing
    Thorn of Amethyst which does nothing
    Artifact Mana, which could be alittle annoying but bearable
    Walking Ballista, which basically does nothing because we can shoot the Dack and them to ensure they don't get anything from the activation.

    If you play Revoker and don't name Dack, then they steal it and you gave them a blocker, which is no Bueno imo.



  • Blind naming revoker is a desperation move imo. If you didn't play Walking Ballista in the deck I would blind name that. Otherwise it might be better to name Jace, Vryn's Prodigy against blue. It is more commonly played. It can slip into play under Thorns easier.

    I have never played White Eldrazi without Revokers. This is something I will have to try out. Seeing Ancient Tomb and Revoker as my only turn 1 play on the play is almost always a mulligan.


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