White Eldrazi



  • Excellent finish and nice list:) I think I'm starting with yours and will test from there:)



  • @Brass-Man @Khahan @CwaM

    Null Rod is both better and worse than it was this past weekend. It's better against Shops because it taps to Tangle Wire, but it's worse because a resurgence of Shops makes being an artifact worse in other matchups. When I really want Stony Silence to resolve, say against Tezzeret, I rarely lead with it anyway. Leading with a Thorn/Thalia either baits their Force, or forces them to play out their moxen, which gives me more information about whether they are holding a Force, or is better than a Stony would be anyway, because they have no moxen.

    Hierarch solves a lot of problems with the mana base. Against Blood Moon you just Metamorph their Trinket Mage and get your Sol Ring or Mana Crypt for a colorless source. You also have Nature's Claim/Disenchants. I could see a single basic for Path/GQ protection, but that's about it.

    34 Mana sources is misleading because 8-9 of our lands are also spells (Canopies/Wastelands/Strip Mines) and the 4 Hierarchs both let us use those lands as spells instead of mana and tend to deal 2-3 damage over the course of a game with exalted triggers, which is often worth a turn. 4 Hierarchs also increase the odds of T2 Thought-Knot, which puts us up a card a turn earlier than we would be. That said, I've played 1-3 Tireless Trackers in the Restoration Angel slot as a draw engine and really liked it. It clashes with Stony Silence, but usually you are winning anyway if you have Silence out, or else you are drawing into it with Tracker.

    4 Thalia is correct. She is the reason we are playing white in the first place. I would much rather have two than zero. Your opponent desperately wants to kill her. You want your thorn effects on turn one. Wingmare seems good because it lets you stack Thorns, but this is mostly necessary because the mono white deck can't support Null Rod/Stony Silence. Furthermore, Because of Hierarch, we are going to 4 mana on turn 2 as much as possible, meaning the value of three drops is somewhat diminished.

    Containment Priest moves to the board because Priest is awful in the Displacer mirror. I could see one or two maindeck, but as much as I love the card, I think going too heavy on maindeck Priest is a mistake.



  • @wappla without testing, I would go for the null rod to have more threats availableon turn 1. But if you really want to run stony silence, I would go with full moxen to power it on turn one.

    I am really not sure wanting noble hierarch. It makes less turn 1 threats (or turn 1 threat into turn2 hierarch which isn't that great). It also makes you naming more human than eldrazi with caverns, which I don't like and when you are going for it turn one, opponent mental misstep becomes great value, and I really don't like that!

    On Priests, you can't only think about the mirror where they can be great when you have the displacer. Also they are obviously great vs oath and dredge. You will have more space and hates from your sideboard to hate dredge using 3 MD.


  • TMD Supporter

    I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.

    I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.

    Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.



  • @DrStreetmention said:

    I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.

    I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.

    Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.

    I think smasher is the wrong card to take out. You are taking out a card that can win the game in 2-3 turns that forces your opponent to dig for a solution to a card to slows down your opponents ability to dig but needs more turns to win.


  • TMD Supporter

    @Khahan said:

    @DrStreetmention said:

    I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.

    I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.

    Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.

    I think smasher is the wrong card to take out. You are taking out a card that can win the game in 2-3 turns that forces your opponent to dig for a solution to a card to slows down your opponents ability to dig but needs more turns to win.

    Ok, that's reasonable. What third card would you cut? (given that I'm trying to test Spirit of the Labyrinth I'd like three for now, but maybe 0-2 would be better).



  • @DrStreetmention said:

    @Khahan said:

    @DrStreetmention said:

    I want to try to improve the Gush matchup. I've had some games where I get out ahead and get a Thorn and Thalia down or something and they are able to dig (slowly) for an answer. Sometimes they find it before I can close the door and sometimes not.

    I'm going to try 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth in the main. Taking out one Displacer, Priest (to the board), and Smasher. Could obviously be wrong but Spirit can be backbreaking so I'm optimistic.

    Displacer + Priest is powerful but feels like it doesn't actually come together for me too often. And Priest is mediocre against a good chunk of the format.

    I think smasher is the wrong card to take out. You are taking out a card that can win the game in 2-3 turns that forces your opponent to dig for a solution to a card to slows down your opponents ability to dig but needs more turns to win.

    Ok, that's reasonable. What third card would you cut? (given that I'm trying to test Spirit of the Labyrinth I'd like three for now, but maybe 0-2 would be better).

    I think I would cut a displacer and a priest for 2 spirits to test out how spirit actually works for you.



  • I think null rod and metamorph need to be in here. I'm also trying main deck dismember over swords.
    If you want to improve the gush match up, try ethersworn canonist .



  • @John-Cox said:

    I think null rod and metamorph need to be in here. I'm also trying main deck dismember over swords.
    If you want to improve the gush match up, try ethersworn canonist .

    I could see a good argument for metamorph but I don't think null rod really belongs in the build presented by Brass Man. This plays out like an agro deck, wanting to drop as many big threats as quickly as possible and end the game asap. Unless you take out 1 or 2 thorns for null rod possibly. Anything else I think its starting to dilute the strategy too much and turn it into a control deck. Not that white eldrazi couldn't handle that. But I think at that point we're getting into a different build and probably want to look at even more lock pieces.


  • TMD Supporter

    My current list is

    I am liking this list thus far.

    I cut Vryn Wingmare because it's not a Human and because 3 is way more than 2 and added a fourth Thalia because this deck really needs Thalia in play.

    Spirit of the Labyrinth has been good thus far. It is also not a Human but it's such a beating if it stays in play and helps to keep from falling as irretrievably behind Gush decks if you aren't able to just Thorn them to death.

    Containment Priest is the weakest creature in the deck unless it's in a matchup where it's amazing. The interaction with Displacer is fine. I experimented with Canonist in this spot (and also instead of Spirit) but I was underwhelmed. I'm sticking with Priest maindeck for now. Maybe because I feel like at least I can fallback on the Displacer Combo to get me out of a tight spot.

    Revoker is amazing. As is Though-Knot. Lodestone is a dumb card that I take out vs. shops but which sometimes just wins.

    I like Reality Smasher but I shaved one to find room for two Endbringers for top-end finishing, theoretical card draw, and a way to close games without attacking. This was suggested to me by @sodoyouwearacape on Twitter last night and I like the theory but I haven't actually cast one yet to test it.

    Containment Priest and Displacer are the creatures that most often get sideboarded out in some number for me. I don't have a ton of confidence that that is completely right but they are the most situational.

    I would be playing some number of Horizon Canopy as suggested by @wappla but I sold them last year as part of my (successful) campaign to obtain paper power. So no regrets there, I'll get some back and test those out at some point. I do like having so many basic lands, though.

    I tried to make the maindeck decent against Gush (and blue in general) as well as Storm/Belcher combo. The sideboard is basically six more cards for dredge and eight or nine for shops. For assorted blue decks usually I just bring in a Swords or two, a Disenchant, or Jitte in, depending what exactly I'm playing against.

    The biggest issue with the deck so far is getting white mana, especially in games two and three but it hasn't been too terrible most of the time. Maybe Horizon Canopy would lead me to be less ambitious with white cards in the board but Swords, Disenchant, Rest in Peace, and especially Kataki are so impactful that I like having access to them.

    Playing the correct lands not just for the current turn but also to set up potential future draws is really tough and interesting.

    In the past I've tried Shops a bit but generally I've played various blue decks. It feels weird that I never draw cards, tutor, or even shuffle (that will be even weirder when I play the deck in paper for the first time). The bottom 45 cards in my library basically don't exist unless my opponent casts Timetwister. I find that... I kind of like that.

    In general I'm enjoying playing the deck and I'm looking forward to seeing where it does in the next few months. If anyone has any feedback or comments on anything I'd love to hear it.



  • @DrStreetmention List looks pretty good, but I must say, after a chastening weekend playing the deck, I'm really not sure about running so few white sources. Essentially, that is the big problem of the deck - the pressure on the mana base - and I'm quite sure how best to fix it. I tried cutting down the number of non-humans and I also went with a colourless + humans only sideboard, to again alleviate pressure on the few white sources in the deck. I even went down to just a single Wasteland + Strip Mine in the main and still, I couldn't get it all to hang together.

    I'm feeling pretty despondent about the deck right now and it's entirely possible that Jaco's colourless version leverages the power of the eldrazi better as it gets to play all the Sol Lands, including eye. That was my original thinking on the deck, when I first tried it after the Modern PT and maybe this whole white angle is a big distraction! Displacer is certainly an interesting creature - but maybe it belongs in a White Trash build rather than here.

    By the by, playing White Eldrazi, I got utterly destroyed by Slash Panther Shops. I admit, I'd never played versus the deck and didn't sideboard optimally. But that seems like another promising shell combining the best of the Eldrazi with disruption - Tangle Wire proving especially bothersome.

    Good luck with the deck. I may need a break from it for now!



  • It might just be me, but any time I splash a colour in Eldrazi, I absolutely play at least 1 copy of the useful utility lands

    Green: Yavimaya Hollow
    Black: Volrath's Stronghold
    White: Kor Haven


  • TMD Supporter

    @sodoyouwearacape Yeah I have hit a mini losing streak of four matches and am a little down on it as well. One of these matches was 0-2 to Eldrazi Tribal and it wasn't close. Their mana is better, their creatures are bigger, and our Thalia/Thorn disruption does nothing to them while their Null Rods can be annoying and their extra Ghost Quarters are definitely a problem.

    White Eldrazi feels best against blue decks and not so good against non-blue decks. Which is fine. I think if White Eldrazi is going to continue to be a thing it will be because we push white rather than move away from it because the more we skew towards Eye of Ugin, Mimic, etc the less likely we'll be able to cast our Thalias. Eldrazi Tribal will always be better and more consistent at that game anyway. White has plenty of tools to improve pretty much any matchup. The question is whether we can get the balance right and I'm not sure about that.

    I feel like this deck really misses Tangle Wires. It's hard to play the tempo game without them. I am tempted to take this deck with challenging mana and add blue for Reflector Mages. Though that would require two colored mana producing sources in play so it's likely too much to ask for. Still, that card would be nice to have.



  • @DrStreetmention Could White Eldrazi just start running Swords in the SB for the Eldrazi Mirror, cutting Thalia's and Thorns to put in bullets?


  • TMD Supporter

    @Topical_Island Yeah I think that is a great start. Currently I'm running 3 Swords and 1 Dismember in the side. I wouldn't mind having access to more Swords or Paths and maybe 1-2 maindeck.

    White Eldrazi is built to beat cantrip decks but there are a lot of things that can just come out vs. creature decks:

    4 Thorn
    ? Thalia
    Wingmare if you're playing it.
    Spirit if you're playing it
    Revokers (vs. Eldrazi Tribal, anyway)



  • @DrStreetmention I just proxied up a netdeck list last night. It's 4 of everything... TKS, Smasher, Thalia, Thorn, Revoker, Priest, Displacer... then 2 Wingmare and a Lodestone and 4 Wastes and Stripmine

    If I'm honest, I'm interested in learning how to beat this archetype with other stuff, but that also means seeing how good this build can be. So far, it sure looks like a powerful deck to me.

    My thoughts about the netdeck list, are that there are way too many 4 ofs. I would have 1 Thalia in the SB, just because I don't like seeing multiples. I get that it can be a bomb, but it can also be a dead draw, and in just yesterdays playtesting, almost every loss took the form of dead cards being topdecked.

    I would put in a singleton Crucible. Whereever someone is on the Thalia question. Crucible can be an insane game ender in this deck, and would be a huge bomb against other Eldrazi decks specifically... those are my initial thoughts.

    Have the bullets in the board been helping you in the mirror much? What are you taking out?


  • TMD Supporter

    @Topical_Island

    Thalia: I was sure that four was the right number earlier in the week but now I'm not as sure. You're right that drawing dead cards in this deck that doesn't have any card draw is a big problem. I may go back to three though I don't think I'd include a fourth in the board as I think there are other sideboard cards that are good against the same decks but have more utility in other matchups as well (maybe Canonist or something).

    Crucible: I have one in the side now but it is definitely a maindeck-worthy card.

    I like my board for shops now. With the list that I posted above I bring in

    and I remove

    I also take out Chalice on the draw.

    I don't know if this is right or not, obviously. I am not sure about how to evaluate Containment Priest (and the Displacer combo) in any matchup other than the obvious (Dredge and Oath). But this sideboarding has felt pretty good.

    I'm thinking of trying:

    -1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben

    -2 Endbringer

    +1 Crucible of Worlds

    +1 Reality Smasher

    +1 Swords to Plowshares

    And I'll replace the Crucible that was in the board with an Ethersworn Canonist, I think. Though I also wouldn't mind having a Ghost Quarter in the board as well (that could also get me a Plains in a pinch).



  • @DrStreetmention That all seems really sound to me. I'm at the very entry level of understanding this deck... so for whatever that's worth.

    If it helps you, I'm working on Oath vs Eldrazi, and I'm carrying many man board Decays anyway. The current plan is to supplement those with some number of Doom Blades from the board to hit the larger creatures. The take away from that, is that trying to deny colors using strip effects is probably the strongest strategy against multicolor decks running extra board hate, or at least a very strong one. I can tell you that specific color denial is much more fearsome than multiple taxing effects from my end, since taxing effects can be unwound 1 at a time on the end of turn, assuming you can just play the first one. Taxing effects are great, but they make it very possible to topdeck good draws, since anything that taps for mana is probably good. Whereas color denial can be brutal, since you have to draw exactly that color off the top to get anything done.



  • What is the consensus on Mother of Runes in White Eldrazi? As folks start to ramp up their creature removal, is Mom a card that should start to see more action? Mass creature removal is fairly challenging to get off vs White Eldrazi between sphere's and wastelands, except maybe deluge which I am not a huge fan of anyway.



  • @p3temangus Mom seems condemned to the margins to me. She's a bit far from the root of the problem for my tastes. (I tend to shy way from the cards that are just counters to other people's counters, because now you're saying... Ok, If I draw X and they draw Y then I draw Z... Z will be really good!... A lot off times they just won't have Y, but it won't matter because you are sitting on dead card Z so they didn't even lose out.)

    No doubt Mom can be bomb in the right circumstances, I just question the frequency of those circumstances. Mom is bad against Dredge, bad against combo, bad against other Eldrazi, bad against Shops/Robots... at least a little dangerous against Oath... but good against Gush and Tempo Creature decks.... so maybe maybe a SB card? I'd be much more interested in cards like Crucible and even weird drawing cards like Coercive Portal, since they are closer to the Root of the Problem in my opinion. (Portal solving the problem by just drawing more creatures and outpacing a Mentor deck's ability to reload the guns.)


 

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