[NEO] Boseiju, Who Endures
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This might be the best card printed since MH2. It very notably dodges spheres and will usually cost just G in the decks that play it. The fact its an etb untapped land is simply extraordinary.
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Has anyone gotten a chance to try this out yet? First impressions?
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Probably Force of Will level of interaction. A staple in any green deck
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@botvinik The card is bonkers in a format that loves powerful artifacts, lands, and enchantments. It's basically uncounterable and instant speed and adds mana when you don't need to blow something up. It only even gives them a dual land out of the deal in a fraction of cases as you're usually hitting a Workshop or Bazaar. Even if you're axing an oath of druids or time vault, giving them a land is negligible for the exchange. This card is even better than FoV in my opinion, and that card was FoW-level warping.
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Is it better than saga?
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It’s a different card but probably in the same tier. It’s like comparing Force of Will and Urza’s Saga
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@lienielsen
Saga is good FOW allows the format to exist it is clearly a better card. -
@botvinik Boseiju is good it allows the format to exist it is clearly a good card
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@lienielsen
Imagine for a moment how good DPS would be if force didn't exist. Force is the gate that holds back the monsters. -
Ritual Tendrils decks had been great for a long time despite FOW. Let’s talk about something more relevant than DPS.
You can’t Force a Boseiju. You can’t Force an Urza’s Saga. You can’t force a Bazaar or Woekshop and you can’t Force if there is a Trinisphere in play. Force is pretty limited. Boseiju on the other hand answers a lot of things that Force could not, and otherwise it’s a land. You just can’t beat that. Boseiju is the end of workshops as a prison archetype.
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@lienielsen said in [NEO] Boseiju, Who Endures:
Ritual Tendrils decks had been great for a long time despite FOW. My argument demonstrated in a single line. When a deck is good in spite of something it is worth considering what it would be like without it.
You can’t Force a Boseiju. You can’t Force an Urza’s Saga. You can’t force a Bazaar or Workshop and you can’t Force if there is a Trinisphere in play(this one is inaccurate but well let it slide because in spirit it is true). Force is pretty limited. Boseiju on the other hand answers a lot of things that Force could not, and otherwise it’s a land. You just can’t beat that. Boseiju is the end of workshops as a prison archetype.
I have now gotten to play the card once and it is no doubt fantastic but:- there was a time in which stax ran 4 needles it is by no means beyond their grasp to continue to exist despite this new threat although its printing is doubtlessly bad for them.
- My contention is not that boseju is bad but rather that force is the most influential card in the history of vintage and to see it so casually paralleled is questionable at best to me.
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@botvinik I don't think the comparison to FoW is being used casually - it really is THAT good. FoW stops some things on the stack on turn 0, but there are several things that did that (leylines being one). After turn 0, there are many things like other counterspells, spheres, tax creatures that all deal with that.
What Boseiju does is it handles all the things FoW never could and then some. FoW is no good after the oath of druids is already on the table. It can do nothing in hand vs a bazaar. It could only 1-for-2 the accelerated threats a Workshop churned out. And if it got behind a sphere or 3-ball, it was basically a dead card. Boseiju shrugs off ALL of that. It even shrugs off FoW itself, being uncounterable. Boseiju can kill almost any permanent-based boogeyman in the format and do it against spheres and permission. And then when none of that is needed - it taps for mana. FoW is a pillar card, but this land basically stands as a parallel of strength in the format going forward. I can't imagine any green deck not running this as an auto-4-of. -
@thewhitedragon69 said in [NEO] Boseiju, Who Endures:
@botvinik I don't think the comparison to FoW is being used casually - it really is THAT good. FoW stops some things on the stack on turn 0, but there are several things that did that (leylines being one). After turn 0, there are many things like other counterspells, spheres, tax creatures that all deal with that.
What Boseiju does is it handles all the things FoW never could and then some. FoW is no good after the oath of druids is already on the table. It can do nothing in hand vs a bazaar. It could only 1-for-2 the accelerated threats a Workshop churned out. And if it got behind a sphere or 3-ball, it was basically a dead card. Boseiju shrugs off ALL of that. It even shrugs off FoW itself, being uncounterable. Boseiju can kill almost any permanent-based boogeyman in the format and do it against spheres and permission. And then when none of that is needed - it taps for mana. FoW is a pillar card, but this land basically stands as a parallel of strength in the format going forward. I can't imagine any green deck not running this as an auto-4-of.This is what I think as well. A sort of new disruption pillar. You can usually pair it with Force of Vigor which is flat out better than FoW in a lot of cases as well.
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@thewhitedragon69
I have found that multiples are much much less good so I am inclined to play 2 or 3 rather than the full four but I haven’t tested much yet so fair enough. Also I wouldn’t consider saga to be on the level of FOW. The way I think about the format there are 3 4-ofs from which all(or almost all depending on how much you respect hate bears) good things spring: force, workshops and bazaar. They live in a world alone. Now if you disagree with that characterization fair enough, but that’s the perspective that leads me to push back aginst the comparison. -
@botvinik said in [NEO] Boseiju, Who Endures:
I'll agree that they DID live in a world alone. Now, I think, they have a new addition to that party. As far as the 4-of inclusion of Boseiju, if you are running green, the first one is always, at worst, an untapped land. The second, at worst, is always an extra green mana land drop for the turn (tap the 1st, sac it to the legend rule) that you can get back with crucible effects. The 3rd and 4th...assuming there's NO artifact, land, or enchantment in the matchup you want to blow up, just adds to your odds of drawing #1 and #2 early when needed. I suppose in those cases it is close to a dead card....but then again, there are equally and probably more cases where FoW is a blank.
The BEST case, you have 4x game wreckers in 1 card, whereas forces are a 1-for-2 (unless you pay 5, which nobody does). I think green is just a less played color in general, and it has no room in a UB storm deck, but if you lean on green at all, this card is assassin's trophy on crack.
There have been decks running blue that don't run FoW because they can't support the blue count to pitch-cast FoW. I'd be hard pressed to think of any deck running green that doesn't at least run 1x-2x Boseiju going forward. There have even been UBg storm/doomsday decks that splash just for assassin's trophy to stop null rod or other show-stoppers. This card is just 100x better.