why isn't thirst for knowledge played as more than a one of?



  • Hi everyone, i was wanting peoples opinions on as to why thirst for knowledge is used mainly as a one of in decks that use it, and also why people dont use it as a draw engine. To me the card seems amazing, as in an artifact heavy deck it can dig deep, and thirst plus thoughtcast seem like a very good draw engine, is there something im missing and its actually not that great of a card? i understand 3 cmc is a lot for a draw spell but it seems like the decks that would want it play most of the artifact acceleration any way. Even Kaii Budde's deck from the vsl only plays a one of thirst for knowledge, and that deck is an artifact based deck, so as i said before is there something im missing here?


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    Basically, it's just not as good as Gush. There are definitely decks out there that want 3 or 4 Thirst for Knowledge, and right after Thirst was unrestricted, people played them. Those decks just didn't put up results compared to the other lists. I was playing a 3 Thirst for Knowledge Painter's Servant deck that I was pretty happy with, but after Lodestone Golem was restricted, it just couldn't compete with the new wave of Gush/Mentor decks. Thirst is a good card, but for the moment, it's not VINTAGE good.

    As to why people are running it as a 1 of instead of 0 ... that's a mystery.



  • Because it's a three mana Preordain



  • Would you rather pay 3 mana for +1 card (provided you have an artfact to discard) or 0 mana?



  • @wappla said:

    Because it's a three mana Preordain

    Qft.

    Also, the format used to revolve around instant speed control decks that would attempt to win every counter war and have drain mana up at all times. Thirst was great at that time at allowing you to do something productive even if your opponent didn't walk into drain. We don't live in that format anymore, in part, due to the card cavern of souls, but also due to other deck construction factors.

    -Storm



  • @Stormanimagus I don't think the decline of Mana Drain is necessarily a result of Cavern of Souls. I would say Mana Drain's usage was declining well before Cavern was seeing widespread use. I'd attribute this more to Gush and the number of conditional tempo counters they tend to play, thus making Mana Drain's UU cost unwieldy.

    Of course, Cavern is certainly another factor that is relevant today, but I don't believe it was the cause.



  • I'm still playing it as a 3-4 of in Painter. And yes, I realize Painter isn't very well positioned, but it's a pile of cards I like to play so I stick to it. It's possibly the weakest card relative to its cost in the deck, but sometimes you just have to keep digging. It also works nicely alongside Jace VP, Dack, and delve.

    Fwiw, we just had our monthly sanctioned vintage tonight in Atlanta, and I went 3-0-1 with a 4 (edit: 3, I trimmed one last minute) Thirst deck. Beat Eldrazi twice, Shops once, and drew with Mentor because I threw the game on my last turn by not keeping a card to pitch to Dack. Thirst was integral, but probably less so than tutor effects finding exactly the right card to combo off.



  • @Hrishi said:

    @Stormanimagus I don't think the decline of Mana Drain is necessarily a result of Cavern of Souls. I would say Mana Drain's usage was declining well before Cavern was seeing widespread use. I'd attribute this more to Gush and the number of conditional tempo counters they tend to play, thus making Mana Drain's UU cost unwieldy.

    Of course, Cavern is certainly another factor that is relevant today, but I don't believe it was the cause.

    That is true. I'd add to that explanation that I think Gush is only better than Thirst now because of certain key synergies that Gush has with Pyromancer and Mentor. When Gush decks were an all-in F-Bond, YawgWin, Tendrils archetype or they ran inferior cards like Quirion Dryad that could be pretty easily foiled by targeted removal, they were not top dog. The advantage of Gush now is that it can easily gain value JUST from Gushing and it almost doesn't matter what cards they draw. They will get insane value from forcing you to respect that they could have drawn something insane and they will ride those infernal monks to victory. Without the spreading army of Elementals and Monks Gush would just be a role player in a complex metagame and Thirst would have a place alongside the Drain engine, mark my words.

    -Storm



  • @letseeker it's not like you're playing a 100 card deck. yes, the card's good. so are a lot of other cards, the question is always what you cut for it. thirst is competing with dack fayden and jace. I played one because I wanted one more instant card draw, but with all the fast mana, I'm not even convinced it shouldn't be the second jace. a couple more seat of the synod and four thoughtcasts were also on the table. but the question is always what you cut. I think the first 2 dopies of dack fayden are just stricly better than thirst.



  • Yeah, Dack is almost always better. 3 mana, loot 2, leave a planeswalker is nearly always stronger than Thirst. It's still a powerful draw effect, though, and sometimes the instant speed really matters.

    Last night I was playing 3 Thirst, 2 Gush, 2 Dack, and the usual broken blue stuff. I would probably trim 1 more Thirst, since they often just end up pitched to FoW or Dack. it's the draw spell of last resort, and there were times when even a Preordain amounts to the same thing.



  • I play 3 thirst, 2 fayden, 0 gush in painters. 2 cavern and 4 magus of the moon make gush a bad idea IMHO. I value thirst over thoughtcast so I can leave mana untapped for rebs, but can be awfully wrong, of course.

    @wappla I cannot see thirst as an expensive preordain. In most decks, preordain is better. However I won't swap thirst for preordain unless replacing magus for gush and caverns for useas.



  • @xouman No Gush makes a lot of sense if you're running Magus. I'm not; I don't bother with Moons or anything else. I run a light black splash for tutors and Will, and they end up being pretty important. Painter can't lock people down like Shops or Eldrazi, so I just try to go for the kill as quickly as is reasonable while maintaining a traditional big blue shell.



  • Vintage has been in a pretty sweet place recently where the board actually matters. Therefore there's only a certain amount of do-nothing you can afford to play. Thirst is definitely taking a backseat to Gush in the do-nothing race, however the exact wrong conclusion to draw is that "only Gush decks are good"

    People are increasingly spending their mana on multifaceted tactics like planeswalkers, Baleful Strix etc. Storm combo is moving towards Dark Confidant and Pack Rat of all things. I expect to see more of this going forward.

    You see this a lot in Standard where card advantage comes in more forms than just "card draw spells". Vintage players and analysts would do well to think about that.



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