@xouman I'm watching the Meandeck Open live on Twitch from Sandusky Ohio, and Delver just beat Oath in the top 4 after boarding in Containment Priest, Aegis of the Gods, and Stony Silence and resolving them all in the last game to lock out Oath. It even beat an active Jace and Sylvan Library, but the Oath player couldn't find Pernicious Deed in time... Pretty awesome.
So i was playing in that event (not hatebears sadly) and the more I think about the meta that reflected, the more I feel like a hatebears deck, might be where I want to be, if i don't want to be playing fast combo, and I don't want to be playing mentor. The biggest problem if this is the meta, is the actual card Monastery Mentor, because it can just do so much work against decks like this.
One thing I liked about this deck wrt "dead" cards is that they can be pitched to hammer mage. The other thing I wanted to say is that if containment priest, or aegis of the gods is good in a matchup, the second one isn't actually dead, since it attacks for 2. Thalia and stony silence are the only cards that truly feel dead to me for their second copies, but the effects are so powerful that I don't want to necessarily go below 3 of them?
So if hammer mage is no longer a necessity and the meta is shifting toward faster combo, toward a kevin cron style mentor deck with remora, or toward Oath I think a different build is called for.
It is possible that filling the role that shops has been filling might be a realistic thing to do. It sucks that we don't have chalice of the void to help us do that but there really are a lot of powerful effects in these colors for slowing down or full on stopping the various plans that decks are running at the moment.
Does anyone have good ideas for a deck that doesn't have to worry as much about beating shops as these have in the past?
Look at my list a couple posts up from this one. It has been testing really well and I've been testing the crap out of it.
It consistently gets insane openers like turn 1 thalia into turn 2 Scab-Clan Berserker swing for 4 and now ping your opponent for 2 every time they cast a non-creature spell. Mantis Rider is a way to fly over mentor tokens for the last 4-8 damage in the late game. This deck does sometimes lose to Mentor, but I've found that I mainly lose to turn 1 Mentor or turn 1 Recall + Lotus bullshit. Most decks lose to that fast an opening. This deck against an average opener from Mentor tends to lead to fascinating grindy games. I will be updating the primer for the deck in the Human Stompy Thread very soon.
Yep, I was awake until Belcher won delver in the finals (past 2AM here), and saw the white army. But it was pretty lucky to draw one of each, and indeed it was really close to have all his toard swept by deed (no pun intended).
The problem is that is not always easy to draw 1 of each relevant bear, and they are sensible to mass removal. In order to avoid the removal, some players are intending to close the match quickly, thus playing more aggro (@Stormanimagus , for example). Given a mox in starting hand, It's not the same attacking for 0, 2, 4, 6, 8 that attacking for 0, 2, 6, 12 (providing thalia, any bear, mayor, mantis). You are saving 1 full turn pushing the aggro.
Yes you do save a turn, but in that same hand -thalia + any other attacking guy, you suddenly are not preventing your opponent from doing much of anything. I think it is better to constrict your opponent like Stax, or even more appropriately like terra nova used to. This is why I wish we had a more consistent way to cast Vryn Wingmare (white Spirit guide I lament your non existence), but I think other similar effects are powerful. This is why things like leonin arbiter and gorilla shaman are interesting to me, since they further constrict mana.
How much work could Illness in the Ranks do against Mentor? Do you think you could get them to board out Missteps against you?
Most players don't have a singular clue how to board against creatures and this can really work to our disadvantage. We expect them to play optimally and side out missteps but they don't cause they don't have enough to side in and don't look at their containment priests as viable side-ins even though they are way better than missteps. This is something I struggle with a lot building this sort of deck. Most players make bonehead sideboarding calls vs. us and this can lead to the "oops I have the misstep" play way more than I'd like.
I need to amend my previous scoffing at goblin sharpshooter. I tested it today against mentor and it's good. I also tested it against Gush-Pyromancer where it is of course, insane. So... my bad. Honestly I didn't see what you were going for earlier. In addition, I think we need to start attacking Mentor at a more fundamental level than just attacking the creature. The reason that deck is so good is that its running probably the best draw engine in vintage right now. Kill the engine, kill the deck. I recommend at least a singleton main board Spirit of the Labyrinth, which turns Gush, Ancestral, Brainstorm, Preordain, Ponder, Dig, and Sylvan Library into junk or worse than junk. And hurts Jace a lot.
@Topical_Island thanks for testing the card, i had inkling it would be at least decent, but it had been better than i thought in testing despite the scoffing i got from some of my fellow vintage players.
I have been looking hard at hatebears in the new meta, and I think I have a list I like, though it isn't Mardu and it isn't unpowered. I kind of want to switch this thread to hatebears in general, but if people would rather I started a new thread I would accept that also. In any event, this is my most recent list:
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Strip Mine
3 Containment Priest
3 Stony Silence
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
2 Mother of Runes
3 Aegis of the Gods
4 Spirit of the Labyrinth
2 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Mox Ruby
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Judge's Familiar
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
SB: 2 Path to Exile
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Stoneforge Mystic
SB: 1 Viashino Heretic
So I agree, in this new meta especially having access to Spirit of the Lab is too important to skimp on. I also added in Leonin Arbiter as a hatebear against Doomsday, as well as, another way to hate on what I anticipate to be shakier mana bases in the lessened Workshop meta. The other card I am testing in this build is Judge's Familiar as a pseudo sphere against things the opponent has to resolve to win. This deck is try to hit the mana of every deck in the format a lot harder than previous versions of hatebears and trying to constrict just how much Mentor can do to get going, while keeping a strong eye on combo.
@garbageaggro I strongly encourage you to make room for one Chalice of the Void, it is killer to just drop at zero when you're on the play (which is what got it restricted), as well as being so annoying for most decks when you set it at 1... especially given the low 1 mana spells you run along with a ton of 2s.