Classic Format



  • MOST OF THIS ORIGIONAL POST IS TOTAL GARBAGE. PLEASE IGNORE MY IGNORANCE. (Although I do think Tinker is OP, and am begining to think Entomb is as well).

    http://www.eternalcentral.com/classicmagicrules

    Thank you Nick “Prospero” Detwiler and everyone else who came up with this format. I love the idea of it. But there are some major problems with it.

    There are growing pains with any new format, but the following immediately jumping out at me:

    Tinker not being restricted
    Prosperous Bloom + Power and the cards from Urza's Saga
    SaberBargain (Academy Rector + Yawgmoth's Bargain) + Power
    Enlightened Tutor + Earthcraft + Squirrel Nest
    4 E. Tutor in a Replenish deck (this is probably the fairest on the list)
    Mirror Universe as a strategy in general (which is probably welcome but has real problems when mana burn, Worship and Ali from Cairo all exist)

    I think that come Jan 1, Enlightened tutor, tinker, squandered resources, and academy rector will be restricted.

    And come July 2017, mirror universe will be added to that list



  • The worst you can Tinker out is Phyrexian Colossus, no? While I'm open to be proven wrong, I imagine there are decks stronger than dedicated Tinker decks here!

    That being said, I will admit I'm stoked about being able to brew an actual Tinker deck. Really excited about that!


  • TMD Supporter

    plus, 4 chances to tinker a monkey cage? yes please



  • Jon Finkle's list from 1999 is a good start

    Mono-Blue Tinker
    Creatures
    4 Masticore
    4 Metalworker
    1 Phyrexian Colossus

    Artifacts
    1 Crumbling Sanctuary
    4 Grim Monolith
    1 Mishra's Helix
    4 Phyrexian Processor
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Thran Dynamo
    4 Voltaic Key
    Sorceries
    4 Tinker

    Instants
    4 Brainstorm

    Lands
    4 Crystal Vein
    9 Island
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Saprazzan Skerry
    Sideboard
    4 Annul
    4 Chill
    4 Miscalculation
    1 Mishra's Helix
    2 Rising Waters

    Now add a bunch of power, other restricted blue cards, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and Mishra's Workshop.



  • Right now, this format is a combo format because all the combos haven't been weeded out. That will make it very unappealing to players coming into the format hoping to play mana drain, morphling, and decree of justice


  • TMD Supporter

    sounds like quite the "miscalculation" LLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLOOLLOOOOOOOLOLLOOLLLOPLOLOOLOLKOLKOKODIGJMPDAOGJNSADOPIUGG

    I'm okay with it, and it's going to be fun

    HERE'S TO NICK !



  • @gkraigher said:

    Jon Finkle's list from 1999 is a good start

    Mono-Blue Tinker
    Creatures
    4 Masticore
    4 Metalworker
    1 Phyrexian Colossus

    Artifacts
    1 Crumbling Sanctuary
    4 Grim Monolith
    1 Mishra's Helix
    4 Phyrexian Processor
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Thran Dynamo
    4 Voltaic Key
    Sorceries
    4 Tinker

    Instants
    4 Brainstorm

    Lands
    4 Crystal Vein
    9 Island
    4 Rishadan Port
    4 Saprazzan Skerry
    Sideboard
    4 Annul
    4 Chill
    4 Miscalculation
    1 Mishra's Helix
    2 Rising Waters

    Now add a bunch of power, other restricted blue cards, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and Mishra's Workshop.

    This was one of my first decks (world champs deck). Such a cool deck!



  • I can't decide if time vault not working is dumb. Actually it is dumb. Very dumb. Make vault/key work and restrict it (tinker/transmute maybe too?). If it is still to good ban it. That wording means I need to skip a turn and have key to take an extra turn.



  • @wfain

    The wording they are using is how it worked for a large duration of that era.

    I would like to see zodiac dragon do what it actually says on the card, but it would be insanely powerful with survival of the fittest.



  • @gkraigher Zodiac Dragon does exactly what it says on the card. Abilities are only relevant on the battlefield unless specified otherwise. This is why you can Animate Dead a Inkwell Leviathan.

    112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield.



  • @varal

    The origionaly wording on zodiac dragon reads:

    "If Zodiac Dragon woud be put into your graveyard, you may return it to your hand"

    Because it uses the word "If" it makes it a replacement effect, and not an ability, so it happens in every zone.


  • TMD Supporter

    My biggest issue with this format is that they view asthetics higher than gameplay.

    I want to play a format like this; I don't want to buy old fetchlands/etc when I own new ones, just because of the asthetics of it.

    Same issue I have with Old School.



  • @Soly asthetics is not valued higher than gameplay, it's valued higher than access and cost to play the format. Gameplay is the same either way.

    But yes, it's a big part of these throwback formats, and I personally would not want to miss it. A completely different feel playing with the "real" stuff. Of course, it's not for everyone.



  • @Soly said:

    My biggest issue with this format is that they view asthetics higher than gameplay.

    I want to play a format like this; I don't want to buy old fetchlands/etc when I own new ones, just because of the asthetics of it.

    Same issue I have with Old School.

    A big part of the Old School experience, for me, is seeing all kinds of older cards that have been since outclassed, in all their original glory. I like that the format makes them playable again, and for me allowing all kinds of reprints just destroys 99% of the reason to play in the first place, which is to see these iconic cards in their original form. The art and overall aesthetics are the driving force of the format I think, way more than the game play itself (though this is a lot of fun too). Most tournaments feature alcohol; my experience has been that I don't particularly care about the outcomes of my games and matches so long as I get to spend an afternoon bullshitting with folks as passionate about the classic cards as me, and seeing sweet cards! 7th edition City of Brass is not sweet. Neither are Ravnica Birds, or the alternate artwork on Wrath of God, or any number of cards that they changed.

    Seeing these reprint cards get played at events really just takes my experience down many notches, they destroy the feeling that you have jumped into a time machine. It's just so jarring. Issues with the aesthetic standards are the most common complaint/divergence in understanding that I see regarding these types of formats, maybe the above can help explain why these rules exist, and why I feel they are 100% necessary when talking about throwback formats. Another minor consideration is that a first print only policy makes it easier to at a glance determine if a card is legal or not.

    At least in the US, Oldschool doesn't have to be backbreaking, since they allow Revised edition cards and also Fallen Empires, which can help fill out decks because of the pump knights and hymn.



  • ^ This precisely sums up how I feel.



  • Do you use comprehensive rules from 2003 or current ones with some specified changes. It says you lose life for unused mana at the end of a phase, does it mean your mana pool doesn't empty after each steps or that you only lose life during the last step. Do you still need to order blockers or can you assign damage as you want? Do you need to assign your land drops to particular effects such as bouncing and replaying Exploration would give you 3 land drops? Do you still take mulligans separately? Can you scry after mulligan? What about changes to token ownership, deathtouch, lifelink and banding with others? Is the turn card draw a triggered ability? Do you still name only one half of a split card or must you name both? Does +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters still cancel each other? What Legend rule is used? Does sideboard always need to have 15 cards? Does City in a Bottle still have its old functionality? I'm sure there is smaller changes I don't know about.

    @gkraigher There is a small functionality change with the replacement effect becoming a triggered ability but the old wording would still only work from the battlefield since replacement effects are static abilities.

    EDIT: I found those rules from before the 8th edition. It's only missing Scourge mechanics.



  • This post is deleted!


  • This thread is a lot of blather from people who haven't even played any games of the format. I guess that is typical of today's society.

    The best thing you can Tinker for is Memory Jar, as all of the creatures suck. If you played Vintage (and other formats) back then you'll quickly realize that sure, there's a Tinker deck, a SquirrelCraft deck, and a Rector Bargain deck (just as there were back then), and they're still not busted compared to decks like Psychatog and some others.

    Give the format some breathing room before you trash it. Vintage was awesome from 2001-2004 - and probably one of the most fun formats of all time, and this is a close (but not exact) approximation of that time.



  • @JACO said:

    This thread is a lot of blather from people who haven't even played any games of the format. I guess that is typical of today's society.

    Give the format some breathing room before you trash it. Vintage was awesome from 2001-2004 - and probably one of the most fun formats of all time, and this is a close (but not exact) approximation of that time.

    I agree. There are a lot of things that I would like to see different about this made up format, like using current rules rather than archaic rules-- but I am not playing it, so it doesn't really matter. If I played it, I would play it with friends with whatever rules we thought would work best.

    I think there is an Italian group that has a very similar format, they started after Modern came out and it uses archaic rules - QL magic, but they have a weird banned list and only allow 3 P9 per deck.



  • @JACO said:

    This thread is a lot of blather from people who haven't even played any games of the format. I guess that is typical of today's society.

    All @gkraigher posts are.



  • To address Greg's concerns;

    1. Tinker might be too good, but if we're going to talk about cards that are too good, Brainstorm is currently unrestricted, and we can certainly start there. Tinker finds Memory Jar, Karn, Mishra's Helix, and not much else, really. It's possible that there's some incredibly busted Tinker deck out there, but right now, I don't think there is (I think there's a good Tinker deck out there, but not one that's better than some of the other decks in the format).

    2. Power is an important addition to the format because it sets a base standard for all decks to compete at. You have to be able to fight Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Timetwister, etc. To get to ProsBloom, while the deck was great in 1996, it wasn't a player by the time 2003 rolled around. Off the top of my head, the major players in 2003 were Tog, BBS, TNT, Suicide Black, Sligh, Keeper, and a few other decks. Modern TPS exists nearly untouched (and I believe is probably the best deck of the format). Combo may force Brainstorm onto the Restricted list down the line, as four Brainstorms and six fetches is pretty powerful already, before you subtract Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap and a slew of other answers. An adjusted TPS scares me a lot more than the old Rector/Bargain decks.

    By no means do I think that I've created a perfect format. There are going to be problems, and I expect things to be a little wonky before they're smoothed out. More than anything else, right now, what we need is people playing the format to try and get a handle on what the format has in its favor, what detracts from it, and how to fix it.

    Results matter, and results will be the basis upon which restrictions and unrestrictions are made. If TPS is as powerful as I think it is, and it's some unstoppable force for the first five months, it's going to get hit. The same is true of any other deck in the format. In current Vintage, people may hate Shops, or Dredge, or whatever, but I can promise you that nothing is worse than the Ritual pillar being overpowered.

    Anyways, to get back on point, I'm really looking forward to the event I'm running at Depot on 8/7, and I will bring a couple of decks with me to Waterbury. I'll play, and support Ray, but Classic excites me in a way that Vintage doesn't, and can't right now.


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