Right now, this format is a combo format because all the combos haven't been weeded out. That will make it very unappealing to players coming into the format hoping to play mana drain, morphling, and decree of justice

sounds like quite the "miscalculation" LLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLLOOLLOOOOOOOLOLLOOLLLOPLOLOOLOLKOLKOKODIGJMPDAOGJNSADOPIUGG

I'm okay with it, and it's going to be fun

HERE'S TO NICK !

@gkraigher said:

Jon Finkle's list from 1999 is a good start

Mono-Blue Tinker
Creatures
4 Masticore
4 Metalworker
1 Phyrexian Colossus

Artifacts
1 Crumbling Sanctuary
4 Grim Monolith
1 Mishra's Helix
4 Phyrexian Processor
4 Tangle Wire
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Voltaic Key
Sorceries
4 Tinker

Instants
4 Brainstorm

Lands
4 Crystal Vein
9 Island
4 Rishadan Port
4 Saprazzan Skerry
Sideboard
4 Annul
4 Chill
4 Miscalculation
1 Mishra's Helix
2 Rising Waters

Now add a bunch of power, other restricted blue cards, Force of Will, Mana Drain, and Mishra's Workshop.

This was one of my first decks (world champs deck). Such a cool deck!

I can't decide if time vault not working is dumb. Actually it is dumb. Very dumb. Make vault/key work and restrict it (tinker/transmute maybe too?). If it is still to good ban it. That wording means I need to skip a turn and have key to take an extra turn.

last edited by wfain

@wfain

The wording they are using is how it worked for a large duration of that era.

I would like to see zodiac dragon do what it actually says on the card, but it would be insanely powerful with survival of the fittest.

last edited by gkraigher

@gkraigher Zodiac Dragon does exactly what it says on the card. Abilities are only relevant on the battlefield unless specified otherwise. This is why you can Animate Dead a Inkwell Leviathan.

112.6. Abilities of an instant or sorcery spell usually function only while that object is on the stack. Abilities of all other objects usually function only while that object is on the battlefield.

@varal

The origionaly wording on zodiac dragon reads:

"If Zodiac Dragon woud be put into your graveyard, you may return it to your hand"

Because it uses the word "If" it makes it a replacement effect, and not an ability, so it happens in every zone.

last edited by gkraigher

My biggest issue with this format is that they view asthetics higher than gameplay.

I want to play a format like this; I don't want to buy old fetchlands/etc when I own new ones, just because of the asthetics of it.

Same issue I have with Old School.

@Soly asthetics is not valued higher than gameplay, it's valued higher than access and cost to play the format. Gameplay is the same either way.

But yes, it's a big part of these throwback formats, and I personally would not want to miss it. A completely different feel playing with the "real" stuff. Of course, it's not for everyone.

@Soly said:

My biggest issue with this format is that they view asthetics higher than gameplay.

I want to play a format like this; I don't want to buy old fetchlands/etc when I own new ones, just because of the asthetics of it.

Same issue I have with Old School.

A big part of the Old School experience, for me, is seeing all kinds of older cards that have been since outclassed, in all their original glory. I like that the format makes them playable again, and for me allowing all kinds of reprints just destroys 99% of the reason to play in the first place, which is to see these iconic cards in their original form. The art and overall aesthetics are the driving force of the format I think, way more than the game play itself (though this is a lot of fun too). Most tournaments feature alcohol; my experience has been that I don't particularly care about the outcomes of my games and matches so long as I get to spend an afternoon bullshitting with folks as passionate about the classic cards as me, and seeing sweet cards! 7th edition City of Brass is not sweet. Neither are Ravnica Birds, or the alternate artwork on Wrath of God, or any number of cards that they changed.

Seeing these reprint cards get played at events really just takes my experience down many notches, they destroy the feeling that you have jumped into a time machine. It's just so jarring. Issues with the aesthetic standards are the most common complaint/divergence in understanding that I see regarding these types of formats, maybe the above can help explain why these rules exist, and why I feel they are 100% necessary when talking about throwback formats. Another minor consideration is that a first print only policy makes it easier to at a glance determine if a card is legal or not.

At least in the US, Oldschool doesn't have to be backbreaking, since they allow Revised edition cards and also Fallen Empires, which can help fill out decks because of the pump knights and hymn.

^ This precisely sums up how I feel.

Do you use comprehensive rules from 2003 or current ones with some specified changes. It says you lose life for unused mana at the end of a phase, does it mean your mana pool doesn't empty after each steps or that you only lose life during the last step. Do you still need to order blockers or can you assign damage as you want? Do you need to assign your land drops to particular effects such as bouncing and replaying Exploration would give you 3 land drops? Do you still take mulligans separately? Can you scry after mulligan? What about changes to token ownership, deathtouch, lifelink and banding with others? Is the turn card draw a triggered ability? Do you still name only one half of a split card or must you name both? Does +1/+1 counters and -1/-1 counters still cancel each other? What Legend rule is used? Does sideboard always need to have 15 cards? Does City in a Bottle still have its old functionality? I'm sure there is smaller changes I don't know about.

@gkraigher There is a small functionality change with the replacement effect becoming a triggered ability but the old wording would still only work from the battlefield since replacement effects are static abilities.

EDIT: I found those rules from before the 8th edition. It's only missing Scourge mechanics.

last edited by varal

This thread is a lot of blather from people who haven't even played any games of the format. I guess that is typical of today's society.

The best thing you can Tinker for is Memory Jar, as all of the creatures suck. If you played Vintage (and other formats) back then you'll quickly realize that sure, there's a Tinker deck, a SquirrelCraft deck, and a Rector Bargain deck (just as there were back then), and they're still not busted compared to decks like Psychatog and some others.

Give the format some breathing room before you trash it. Vintage was awesome from 2001-2004 - and probably one of the most fun formats of all time, and this is a close (but not exact) approximation of that time.

@JACO said:

This thread is a lot of blather from people who haven't even played any games of the format. I guess that is typical of today's society.

Give the format some breathing room before you trash it. Vintage was awesome from 2001-2004 - and probably one of the most fun formats of all time, and this is a close (but not exact) approximation of that time.

I agree. There are a lot of things that I would like to see different about this made up format, like using current rules rather than archaic rules-- but I am not playing it, so it doesn't really matter. If I played it, I would play it with friends with whatever rules we thought would work best.

I think there is an Italian group that has a very similar format, they started after Modern came out and it uses archaic rules - QL magic, but they have a weird banned list and only allow 3 P9 per deck.

last edited by spook

@JACO said:

This thread is a lot of blather from people who haven't even played any games of the format. I guess that is typical of today's society.

All @gkraigher posts are.

To address Greg's concerns;

  1. Tinker might be too good, but if we're going to talk about cards that are too good, Brainstorm is currently unrestricted, and we can certainly start there. Tinker finds Memory Jar, Karn, Mishra's Helix, and not much else, really. It's possible that there's some incredibly busted Tinker deck out there, but right now, I don't think there is (I think there's a good Tinker deck out there, but not one that's better than some of the other decks in the format).

  2. Power is an important addition to the format because it sets a base standard for all decks to compete at. You have to be able to fight Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Timetwister, etc. To get to ProsBloom, while the deck was great in 1996, it wasn't a player by the time 2003 rolled around. Off the top of my head, the major players in 2003 were Tog, BBS, TNT, Suicide Black, Sligh, Keeper, and a few other decks. Modern TPS exists nearly untouched (and I believe is probably the best deck of the format). Combo may force Brainstorm onto the Restricted list down the line, as four Brainstorms and six fetches is pretty powerful already, before you subtract Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap and a slew of other answers. An adjusted TPS scares me a lot more than the old Rector/Bargain decks.

By no means do I think that I've created a perfect format. There are going to be problems, and I expect things to be a little wonky before they're smoothed out. More than anything else, right now, what we need is people playing the format to try and get a handle on what the format has in its favor, what detracts from it, and how to fix it.

Results matter, and results will be the basis upon which restrictions and unrestrictions are made. If TPS is as powerful as I think it is, and it's some unstoppable force for the first five months, it's going to get hit. The same is true of any other deck in the format. In current Vintage, people may hate Shops, or Dredge, or whatever, but I can promise you that nothing is worse than the Ritual pillar being overpowered.

Anyways, to get back on point, I'm really looking forward to the event I'm running at Depot on 8/7, and I will bring a couple of decks with me to Waterbury. I'll play, and support Ray, but Classic excites me in a way that Vintage doesn't, and can't right now.

Also, regarding aesthetics:

Aesthetics are tremendously important. If you had walked into a game store and seen people playing with little pieces of cardboard that had no color, no images, and were nothing more than words printed on cardboard, would the game have appealed to you? Would it have interested you in the slightest? The game was beautiful, and had tremendously gifted artists producing beautiful images for a long time. The art direction was incredible. Now everything looks like it's produced for World of Warcraft. I'm sick of homogenized digital garbage. Are there exceptions? Sure. Flusterstorm comes to mind. But those exceptions are rare.

Restoring as much of the aesthetic beauty of the game as possible is important because the game was beautiful for a long, long time, and that's how I'd like to remember it first and foremost. Paolo Parente's Masticore is beautiful. The silver framed reprint is awful. If you were going to play Masticore in a deck, there is only one correct answer as to which to play. Jerry Tiritilli's Rishadan Port is beautiful. The new reprint is awful. Does this seem elitist? Sure. Is it right? Yes. How do I know this? Because there are still some objective standards that can be agreed upon in order to determine superiority among art and artists. This is why a four year old's finger painting isn't hanging in the Met next to a Picasso.

Classic stops at Eighth Edition specifically because of the card frame change. I would have loved to have had Eighth Edition, and Mirrodin block, but it's absolutely not possible. The beginning of this abomination was in July 2003, and if I'm going to go back to a time when I truly loved Magic, deeper than I ever have since, then it's going to be before that absurd mistake came about.

I have BBS and Suicide Black built, and they're beautiful. If I wasn't a damn Luddite, I'd post pictures of what they look like. Compare that to the Eldrazi decks floating around now. There's no competition.

So pretty much we are playing Vintage circa 2002/3. That is around the time I stopped playing Extended (due to the Duals being rotated out) and started to turn my focus towards Vintage. Sadly as a thirteen year old I couldn't afford power but I was always a fan of Keeper and Neo-Academy decks! I would definitely play now. I am curious as to what the format would have looked like if Time Vault didn't have the errata.

@p3temangus The Khans fetches do have new art, with dragon bones. Original art (and the lack of Tarkir-related flavor text) was more abstract and universal.

last edited by maciek16180
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