To address Greg's concerns;

  1. Tinker might be too good, but if we're going to talk about cards that are too good, Brainstorm is currently unrestricted, and we can certainly start there. Tinker finds Memory Jar, Karn, Mishra's Helix, and not much else, really. It's possible that there's some incredibly busted Tinker deck out there, but right now, I don't think there is (I think there's a good Tinker deck out there, but not one that's better than some of the other decks in the format).

  2. Power is an important addition to the format because it sets a base standard for all decks to compete at. You have to be able to fight Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus, Timetwister, etc. To get to ProsBloom, while the deck was great in 1996, it wasn't a player by the time 2003 rolled around. Off the top of my head, the major players in 2003 were Tog, BBS, TNT, Suicide Black, Sligh, Keeper, and a few other decks. Modern TPS exists nearly untouched (and I believe is probably the best deck of the format). Combo may force Brainstorm onto the Restricted list down the line, as four Brainstorms and six fetches is pretty powerful already, before you subtract Mental Misstep, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap and a slew of other answers. An adjusted TPS scares me a lot more than the old Rector/Bargain decks.

By no means do I think that I've created a perfect format. There are going to be problems, and I expect things to be a little wonky before they're smoothed out. More than anything else, right now, what we need is people playing the format to try and get a handle on what the format has in its favor, what detracts from it, and how to fix it.

Results matter, and results will be the basis upon which restrictions and unrestrictions are made. If TPS is as powerful as I think it is, and it's some unstoppable force for the first five months, it's going to get hit. The same is true of any other deck in the format. In current Vintage, people may hate Shops, or Dredge, or whatever, but I can promise you that nothing is worse than the Ritual pillar being overpowered.

Anyways, to get back on point, I'm really looking forward to the event I'm running at Depot on 8/7, and I will bring a couple of decks with me to Waterbury. I'll play, and support Ray, but Classic excites me in a way that Vintage doesn't, and can't right now.

Also, regarding aesthetics:

Aesthetics are tremendously important. If you had walked into a game store and seen people playing with little pieces of cardboard that had no color, no images, and were nothing more than words printed on cardboard, would the game have appealed to you? Would it have interested you in the slightest? The game was beautiful, and had tremendously gifted artists producing beautiful images for a long time. The art direction was incredible. Now everything looks like it's produced for World of Warcraft. I'm sick of homogenized digital garbage. Are there exceptions? Sure. Flusterstorm comes to mind. But those exceptions are rare.

Restoring as much of the aesthetic beauty of the game as possible is important because the game was beautiful for a long, long time, and that's how I'd like to remember it first and foremost. Paolo Parente's Masticore is beautiful. The silver framed reprint is awful. If you were going to play Masticore in a deck, there is only one correct answer as to which to play. Jerry Tiritilli's Rishadan Port is beautiful. The new reprint is awful. Does this seem elitist? Sure. Is it right? Yes. How do I know this? Because there are still some objective standards that can be agreed upon in order to determine superiority among art and artists. This is why a four year old's finger painting isn't hanging in the Met next to a Picasso.

Classic stops at Eighth Edition specifically because of the card frame change. I would have loved to have had Eighth Edition, and Mirrodin block, but it's absolutely not possible. The beginning of this abomination was in July 2003, and if I'm going to go back to a time when I truly loved Magic, deeper than I ever have since, then it's going to be before that absurd mistake came about.

I have BBS and Suicide Black built, and they're beautiful. If I wasn't a damn Luddite, I'd post pictures of what they look like. Compare that to the Eldrazi decks floating around now. There's no competition.

So pretty much we are playing Vintage circa 2002/3. That is around the time I stopped playing Extended (due to the Duals being rotated out) and started to turn my focus towards Vintage. Sadly as a thirteen year old I couldn't afford power but I was always a fan of Keeper and Neo-Academy decks! I would definitely play now. I am curious as to what the format would have looked like if Time Vault didn't have the errata.

@p3temangus The Khans fetches do have new art, with dragon bones. Original art (and the lack of Tarkir-related flavor text) was more abstract and universal.

last edited by maciek16180

@mickey.nobilis said:

@JACO said:

This thread is a lot of blather from people who haven't even played any games of the format. I guess that is typical of today's society.

All @gkraigher posts are.

Aren't there warnings for incendiary posts like these?

My knee jerk reaction was just throwing out ideas. I don't want to see this format get derailed like the Modern has. When modern was invented, a lot of combo decks existed, and every once in a while another one comes along and wrecks the format again.

Fortunately we won't have that sort of equilibrium in Classic since the card pool is finite.

But I would still error on the safe side than the Wild West. And test individual cards for removal from the list than the opposite way around.

Tinker needs to get banned.

The other cards might be safe. Mirror universe is most definately safe.

And no one except for Nick and a handful of others have played this format. So most of the people in this thread are all working on the same 0 information as each other.

last edited by gkraigher

I hope this is a success. I'm not going to be able to play at Depot, but if the format catches on, maybe I can play it where I live!

Hey nick, Soooo i know this goes against the technical rules of the format as they are stated currently, but do you think there could be allowances for new cards printed in old boarders ie. judge promos for crucible, hierarch, bob, swords and anything else wizards prints from here on out in the old boarder. Im not necessarily asking for right now, but once things start to settle and there is a more defined image of what the format will be. i think its a neat idea that would add some nuance to what is essentially a static format. This gives the potential for growth, albeit exceptionally slow (who knows if they ever make more) and adds a little more to innovation other then just restrictions/unrestrictions. just a thought.

@Chiaroscuro We went back and forth on this. I won't say never, but the initial decision was not to. Down the line, maybe. Noble Hierarch would be a cool addition, but Crucible is potentially a game-changer.

How different is the b&r list from the original post-scourge list?

All of the combos mentioned in this thread were legal in 2002, none of them were good. Tinker was unplayable until Mirrodin. If you're convinced that was an oversight by players at the time, I think that makes you a perfect candidate for the format, doesn't it?

A suggestion, there's a page on classic MTG but it's kind of awkward for discussions and such. I wonder if you could make it a group instead (similar to the other FB groups) so more discussion can take place. Of course, discussing here on TMD would be fine too. Anywhere as long there's a centralised place to talk about the format!

@Brass-Man said:

How different is the b&r list from the original post-scourge list?

All of the combos mentioned in this thread were legal in 2002, none of them were good. Tinker was unplayable until Mirrodin. If you're convinced that was an oversight by players at the time, I think that makes you a perfect candidate for the format, doesn't it?

Tinker was 100% not unplayable in any format it's ever been legal in. 4 of or 1 of.

Yes it was an oversight then. The card is fucking broken.

It doesn't matter if memory jar is the best target, memory jar is a great target and so should the rest of the toolbox deck built around it.

Tinker solidified the career of Jon Finkle because he beat Kai Budde playing the exact same deck, without power.

I love you brass man, but your opinion that tinker was "unplayable" until Mirrodin is wrong.

last edited by gkraigher

@gkraigher Come on man, the format hasn't even started and you're already bickering about the B&R list? Nick's already said that if anything ends up being too good it'll get looked at.

If any card ends up being an issue, I'm sure it will be dealt with appropriately if the results show this. This is a player driven format, not one managed by WOTC.

last edited by Hrishi

@gkraigher said:

@Brass-Man said:

How different is the b&r list from the original post-scourge list?

All of the combos mentioned in this thread were legal in 2002, none of them were good. Tinker was unplayable until Mirrodin. If you're convinced that was an oversight by players at the time, I think that makes you a perfect candidate for the format, doesn't it?

Tinker was 100% not unplayable in any format it's ever been legal in. 4 of or 1 of.

Yes it was an oversight then. The card is fucking broken.

It doesn't matter if memory jar is the best target, memory jar is a great target and so should the rest of the toolbox deck built around it.

Tinker solidified the career of Jon Finkle because he beat Kai Budde playing the exact same deck, without power.

I love you brass man, but your opinion that tinker was "unplayable" until Mirrodin is wrong.

Serious question @gkraigher , did you play Vintage (or even Magic) back then? Finkel beat Budde at Worlds in 2000 in STANDARD with a 4 Tinker deck, cheating in to play such great hits as Phyrexian Colossus, Masticore, and Phyrexian Processor. Tinker in Extended at Pro Tour New Orleans 2003 (with a different set of cards, like Goblin Charbelcher) was also busted, for that format. But neither of those formats is even remotely close to what Classic is (or what Vintage was in 2002). If you want to jam some Moxen in to those decks and cast Tinker, no one is stopping you. Many players will probably be elated to Artifact Mutation your giant mediocre artifact before your Tinker even hits the graveyard.

Is Tinker good? Yes. Is Rector good? Yes. Is Squirrel Nest good? Yes. Is Psychatog good? Yes. Is Survival of the Fittest good? Yes. Is Standstill good? Yes. Are any of these way overpowered? Probably not, based on any rigorous historical analysis of Vintage from 2000-2003. Please go back and read TheManaDrain archives and Morphling.de Top 8 archives if you never played back then, because you're making a big deal of out nothing. Your frequent alarmism here and in other threads you reply to is turning off a lot of people, and it needn't be that way. You are my homie and all, so I'd encourage you to put together some decks and test with the Detroit posse and have fun before you run around like chicken little. If Tinker (or anything else) dominates the 16-32 man Classic tournament circuit for 6-12 months I'm sure enough people will complain (that's why we have the Internet, right?), and @Prospero will make changes as appropriate. Nobody is wedded to anything (except awesome taste in card frames and art) - they just want to have fun playing cards they used to enjoy playing.

Need to second @Brass-Man on Tinker. Memory Jar is great, and Nick has already pointed out that TPS could potentially be overpowered in this format, but Tinker really took off during this time after Darksteel Colossus got printed. Arcane Laboratory is probably a must have in any blue control SB for this format. Could there be some sort of Tinker, Jar, Welder deck? I certainly hope so!

I REALLY hope someone shows up to Depot with a food chain goblins list. Those lists were consistent as all get out and folks always seemed under-prepared for it despite it success during that time.

@JACO

Yes Jaco, I've played Magic since Spring of 1994 - Current Day. I had a full set of power in 1998, and played Vintage in the Wild West days when Mana Crypt was allowed as a 4 of. Before Zvi wrote an open letter to Wizards, demanding they restrict dozens of cards from Urza's Saga and Legacy.

"Unplayable" was probably too strong a word (it's a word I use pretty loosely). By "unplayable" I just meant that when Scourge was printed, when a very similar set of cards were legal, there was no top-tier Tinker deck, just like there's no top-tier deck with Tinker in it today.

I am a little surprised Tinker isn't on the first pass list, I would have assumed we just start with the January 2004 b&r list until we had a results-based reason not to. Tinker was restricted in 1999, in the same announcement as Lotus Petal, Vampiric Tutor, Yawgoth's Will and 5 other cards, all of which are on the new restricted list except Tinker. I don't think Tinker is the scariest card in the format, but I'm not sure why a special exception was made for it to be unrestricted, and not, say, Mystical Tutor.

I don't, however, think there's any need to be concerned with ProsBloom, SquirrelCraft, SabreBargain cards - those three archetypes had years and years of people trying and failing to make them work. I actually suspect this format might be unbalanced, but in a completely different direction than this.

Since I have no where else to post it, here is the list I plan to run at Depot...I would like to find space for some number of Skeletal Scrying mainboard, but the list is sort of tight. With the old (and correct...) Wish rules: ancestral, RFG ancestral to Scrying, Cunning Wish for Ancestral is something I CANT WAIT to have a chance to do.
4 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
2 volcanic island
2 tropical island
2 underground sea
2 island
1 library of alexandria
4 mox
1 black lotus
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
3 Psychatog
1 ancestral recall
4 brainstorm
1 time walk
1 yawgmoths will
3 cunning wish
2 intuition
1 fact or fiction
4 accumulated knowledge
2 deep analysis
1 gush
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 vampiric tutor
4 force of will
2 mana drain
2 counterspell Proxy limit 😞
3 durress
1 pernicious deed
60
SB
1 berserk
1 coffin purge
2 tormods crypt
3 arcane laboratory
1 naturalize
1 skeletal scrying
1 rack and ruin
2 pyroblast
1 artifact mutation
2 Engineered Plague

You guys might also be interested in reading this http://ancientmtgdecks.blogspot.ca/, which was started in 2013. It's essentially this, only broken down into 2 formats - 1 with a Restricted List and 1 with a Banned List, and with modern rules instead of the old ones. Using mana burn has been debated though.

last edited by Teluin

@Teluin mana burn obviously has to be included, nothing's more classic mtg than that 😉

@kistrand said:

@Teluin mana burn obviously has to be included, nothing's more classic mtg than that 😉

@kistrand What value does mana burn bring to the 'classic' format? What are the reasons against using mana burn?

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