MTGO July 2016 Power 9 Challenge

@snowydude The sample size is way too small to start making claims like that. There are a huge number of factors that influence every event. You can take "scoreboard" on it's own when the sample size is large enough to eliminate variance.

@Hrishi in case it wasnt obvious that post was somewat sarcastic. not 100% but ya know not super serious.

how many players exactly do you want in a vintage sample size? its not like we can just throw a 300 man vintage event together.

Congrats diophan on the back-to-back.

Looks like one take-away is the return of black. 11/18 decks played it.

@ChubbyRain said:

one player in one Power 9 ran what appeared to be a M15 Precon. He stuck it out the entire event and ended up 1-6.

Everybody knows that if you want to win a Vintage tournament, you need to use the Jace precon.

Kidding aside, congratulations to Ryan for back-to-back victories.

More than that, big thanks to Ryan and Matt for doing this analysis for us.

congrats @diophan for knocking me out of two of these in a row!

🙂

@snowydude said:

@rikter im just going to go with "scoreboard" 66.7% win rate against the field. just edging oath out by 5ish%

wait wait how can you claim dps is not the best paper deck? what pratell do you think is the best paper deck. also while your at it whats the best online deck?

I make a distinction between paper and online play because I dont play online, and I dont know all the quirks of card availability that might shape deck choices, and by extension the meta.

Best deck? Probably Jeskai mentor followed by ravager/tks.

Zero Workshops in top 16?

#restrictThorn

@Prospero

There were only 7 Shop players and the metagame is very hostile toward Workshops.

  1. Gush has undergone a transformation to deal with Eldrazi. It plays a lot of creature removal so the current build of Shops (lots of creatures) is incredibly bad.

  2. Storm now has Pack Rat, which makes the matchup absurdly in favor of Storm. The top 16 Storm list (MRP900) had Pack Rat, while Becks84 did not. Since combo split with Shops, I'm assuming the Pack Rat version won?

  3. Big blue has a robust mana base right out of the gate; literally doesn't matter if Shops resolves 2Sphere effects.

I suspect Shops could be a lot better if someone updated it.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist i wouldnt say it as harsh as you did, shops is still very playable and is a strong archetype, however its true that the meta has more and more adjusted to it and shops suffers from the meta adjusting to other decks and strategies that overlap with shops weaknesses.

Yeah I think Shops is an eternal player in Vintage; just seems like it needs to undergo a transformation once a year to remain competitive.

@desolutionist Speaking of pack rat storm, this was by far the most amusing play of the P9 for me:

alt text

Before blockers, pyroblast a mox, misstep pyroblast 3 times.

@diophan now imagine if the pack rat player had a copy of wonder

@diophan

I don't think Pack Rat is very good against horizontal growth creatures 😛

I can't speak for everyone, but nobody in the New York Shop community is working on the pillar, and I can't imagine that changing anytime soon. Playing Shops in Vintage is anathema to me right now, and that's not going to change until at least one of the recent restrictions comes back. There is no reason to fight with Shops when the deck is so clearly stacked against you.

I'm looking to play something other than Shops at Waterbury, which will be the only Vintage event I play in for the rest of 2016 if nothing is done in September (I don't think anything is being done in September).

@Prospero said:

I can't speak for everyone, but nobody in the New York Shop community is working on the pillar, and I can't imagine that changing anytime soon. Playing Shops in Vintage is anathema to me right now, and that's not going to change until at least one of the recent restrictions comes back. There is no reason to fight with Shops when the deck is so clearly stacked against you.

I'm looking to play something other than Shops at Waterbury, which will be the only Vintage event I play in for the rest of 2016 if nothing is done in September (I don't think anything is being done in September).

Didn't Ravager Workshops just win your most recent event?

@socialite Two months ago, Workshops won a tournament. The blue decks adjusted, and Shop decks are no longer winning because they are hyper-linear and predictable. They have no backup plan. Where's Martello/Espresso/Terra Nova now?

last edited by Prospero

@Prospero said:

@socialite Two months ago, Workshops won a tournament. The blue decks adjusted, and Shop decks are no longer winning because they are hyper-linear and predictable. They have no backup plan. Where's Martello/Espresso/Terra Nova now?

Where were they before?

Perhaps its anecdotal but I find the archetype to still be one of the top if not the top one in the meta. Espresso hasn't been relevant in years, and Terra Nova was a flash in the pan - correct me if I'm wrong but neither of those had had much work done on them outside of the most recent blending of Nova/Espresso using Dark Depths (and it didn't perform that well either). It's been pretty much just Martello as far as I can remember for the past few years. It took two restrictions. I get being emotionally invested in an archetype but I feel like you're letting your disgruntlement with actions taken (that you did not agree with - obviously) color your perception thus far and it's a real shame because you're a boon to the community and my friend.

For what it's worth as much as a perceived loss you see from the Workshop camp I'd argue we got quite a bit in return as well.

An updated Terra Nova list performed well for the Forinos and I at Champs last year, but was an alteration or two away from putting us in contention. I picked up my second loss at 6-1, I'm not sure when they picked up theirs. If the deck had Lodestone Golem, it would be able to be adjusted, and be a player. It doesn't, so it sits on the sidelines.

The token generators have been brutal to Smokestack in general. The last iteration of the deck that was successful was a list that I played that had both Ratchet Bomb and Steel Hellkite main. Without both Chalice and Lodestone, the deck sits on the sidelines.

While I was not a fan of the Chalice-less list that Nick DiJohn was piloting to successful results, the deck was still successful in that incarnation. The loss of Lodestone Golem was brutal to that deck.

Forino put in some work in the pillar in the spring of this year, but the results weren't there with the new list at the N.Y.S.E. Open.

My Dark Depths list was absolutely crutching on Lodestone. It was critical, as it provided a reasonable clock, and also pushed the opponent to respect you with artifact removal while you had the backup plan of assembling a 20/20. Without Lodestone Golem, the deck has no clock, and thus, no distraction from the 20/20. It doesn't help that there are infinite Swords to Plowshares in the metagame right now. I can't speak for anyone else's results, but I split a top eight, split top four twice, and split a finals with the deck. Every time that I played it, I won with it. That deck is done without Lodestones, and seeing Bob Maher pick up the list for the VSL play-in was weirdly disappointing, as I don't think he realized that the deck is garbage now.

As an aside that is totally irrelevant now, I had taken to offering splits as soon as I was in top eight/top four/the finals of every tournament that I did well at because I knew that when I performed well with a Workshop deck, the commentary wouldn't be "wow, Detwiler did well" but rather "Workshops are dumb/oppressive/need to be restricted out of existence". Playing with that over my head at every event that I played in for the last three years has been ridiculous, and exhausting.

I have tens of thousands of dollars into cards that I can't play, because the pillar I've spent tens of thousands of dollars on can't compete like it could a year ago. Attendance at local events are generally down, people who have been stalwarts of the community are gone, and all I see is a few different variations on blue decks win ad nauseum. The B&R list is a personal thing for a lot of people, mostly because the barrier to entry to Vintage is so high. If I was going to play a tier one deck right now, I'd need duals, fetches, and a lot more. There was a point in time, recently, where the only pillar that was weak was Storm. The argument can be made that the only pillars that are strong right now are Null Rod and Force of Will. That's bullshit.

I have let loose a few times in the last few months, and I have quickly backed off, because this whole conversation is 100% poison, and all it is guaranteed to generate is bad emotions. Nothing I say will impact the B&R list (I devoutly believe this), and yet someone like Sam Black (who doesn't play the format, and didn't even know that Bazaar hadn't been restricted as he made his ridiculous "restrict Bazaar & Workshop" argument") can influence what happens, because he's a Magic celebrity, and thousands of people who don't play the format assume he's right about things they remain ignorant of. Sam took a generic Mentor list to the VSL play-in, got beaten up, and was upset. Names don't matter here; under the right circumstances, I'll take any number of our Vintage aficionados over the PT guys. But the PT guys have megaphones, and we do not. Perhaps it's supremely arrogant on my part, but there is a part of me that believes that I bear some responsibility for Lodestone's restriction; not for results that I have put up, but for losing my match to Ochoa in the play-in finals. If I had won, I would have spent the entirety of that VSL season arguing against the Lodestone restriction, and doing it with results. Maybe that would have tipped the balance. At this point, it's another moot point in a sea of moot points.

Gush is dumb. Gush was dumb in 2003, and Gush is dumb now. Gush never should have been unrestricted, and yet I held back my opinion on it because I knew that other people enjoyed playing with it, and because Vintage was the format where we were supposed to be able to play with our cards. What's the alternative? Be vocal, demanding, and rock the boat until somebody at the DCI gives me what I want? This game is a hobby, not a job. This game is supposed to be a release, not a stress.

I have spent more time, effort, and money building the community in the last 15 years than just about anyone else in the world, and Vintage is sickening right now. I want nothing more than to be excited about the format. I want to build decks, loan them out, spread the gospel of the format, and further proselytize. I can't do what I want to do right now, because the format is not exciting, because a few very vocal people warped the format in ways they didn't understand (and don't really care to), and because as much as the salt is flowing now, I don't want to keep doing this, having this conversation, letting all of this out. I love the community, and my love for the community made me do things I didn't really want to do. When the Lodestone restriction was announced, part of me wanted to refund every N.Y.S.E. Open entry fee, sell the prize support, and be done with it. Spending over 100 hours putting together a tournament that makes no money, year after year, while you hate what has been done to the format was not an appealing prospect. Do I take the Lodestone restriction personally? Absolutely. It violated my basic standard philosophy about what Vintage was supposed to be. I started the process of selling off cards, and sold off a little over $6,000 worth before I stopped, because I know that once I sell my power and Shops that it really is over for me (and I'm not going to buy back in).

I don't want to pay the bill that was handed to me (a bill for duals, fetches, Flusterstorms, etc.) in order to keep playing Vintage, and I don't want to walk away from the game entirely. You could make the argument that Classic is nothing more than me running away from Vintage, and you wouldn't be entirely wrong. Maybe what I need is someone to just tell me to 'man up' and sell everything, take the money, walk away, and do something else with my time. But with the amount of time, effort, and money that I have spent on this game, and this format, that's a galling proposition. Workshops aren't fine, and they're not going to be fine until something is done, but the majority of Vintage players play blue, so it's only ever going to be an unpopular position among a few people while we watch the rest of the format play their blue spells.

last edited by Prospero

@Prospero this deserves a own thread.

@Evoclipse Honestly, given the impermeable nature of the DCI's logic, and the certitude that nothing is going to be done anytime soon to fix their errors, it's probably best to just say that I'm salty, ignore me, and move on.

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