MTGO July 2016 Power 9 Challenge

But my post wasn't about whether Gush warps the metagame or not, or really whether it should be restricted or not (although that could be considered a subsidiary point). Our views on either question aren't really germane, and therefore need not be resolved here. (In fact, I could strongly believe that restricting Gush is the right thing to do, and my critique of your post's logic would still stand - so it does not depend at all on our positions on Gush.)

My post was an inquiry into what restricting Gush has to do with the vision you articulated for the format. Specifically, you complained that the you don't want to play a format where you are forced to play "dual lands, fetchlands and Flusterstorm." Restricting Gush doesn't help us address that at all. In fact, it would make that specific problem worse, by the logic of Gush's most vocal critics (of Gush acting to suppress other blue decks, and that those blue decks would be stronger against Shops than Gush decks).

In a post where I took your two main points to be about a desire to increase the % of non-blue decks in the format and strengthen the Shop pillar, the discussion of Gush was a complete non-sequitur, and in fact, would move you further away from your vision.

last edited by Smmenen

Smmenen said:

And, Gush decks weren't the reason that Golem was restricted.

I think so. You even talked about how Big Blue decks are better against Shops than Gush. Big blue decks don't struggle with Golem as much as Gush decks do. Golem and Chalice were restricted so Gush decks could play more preordains and less lands.

Chalice and Lodestone were restricted while Gush decks played 4 Mental Missteps... I mean, the Gush decks weren't even attempting to beat Shop decks.

last edited by desolutionist

@desolutionist said:

Chalice and Lodestone were restricted while Gush decks played 4 Mental Missteps... I mean, the Gush decks weren't even attempting to beat Shop decks.

Oh this. Again. 😕

last edited by Guest

@socialite said:

@desolutionist said:

Chalice and Lodestone were restricted while Gush decks played 4 Mental Missteps... I mean, the Gush decks weren't even attempting to beat Shop decks.

Oh this. Again. 😕

Sigh... When will people figure out that you try to beat the decks that are the majority of the metagame, not 25%. 😕

@ChubbyRain

Shops was around 30% and if you weren't trying to beat Shops, then you weren't trying to win. BK was trying to beat Shops, so he won.

My Take:

Shops with 4x Golem was not over-powered (I won a P9 with 4 MM, 3 flusterstorm, 1 spell pierce maindeck). However Shops promoted pretty bad gameplay. So be it.

If Gush gets restricted tokens blue is still going to be very strong. The maximum artifact mana mentor decks are already good. If Gush gets restricted its easier to cut islands and run artifact mana. People could run things like Dark Confidant to make up for the loss of draw spells. BK ran a version of this deck in the VSL and its a strong deck.

@desolutionist Shops was 100 out of 462 at Vintage champs...

Edit: The point is that you should be building your main deck to maximize your win percentage against the field. Running less than 4 Missteps puts you at a significant disadvantage to other Gush decks, it makes the Combo matchups worse, and isn't ideal against other blue decks. It's not worth it in most tournaments if your goal is to win the event.

last edited by Guest

You can make the same argument towards shop decks not really trying to spec specifically for gush decks as well though. It feels to me as if many shops pilots jam the same cards into their deck and insist that the format is steered in a way that allows them to beat the most prevalent decks. When TKS/Eldrazi started to become popular it coincided with a huge, temporary boost to their win rate. Mostly because the best gush lists were those that essentially preboarded for the mirror. Now that they have shifted in their approach the same old, stale shops lists proceed to lose more.
Not actually that surprising.

Shouldn't we move to a thread "Is Shops under powered and should Gush be restricted" ?

In my opinion Gush is fine, it shouldn't be restricted and its not oppressive on the format at all. The only sad thing about Gush is that Thirst and Gifts arent seeing much play, however Gush is probably not the only reason for that and that is hardly a reason to restrict a card. Shops seems fine, its not as strong as it was before the Golem and Chalice restriction but its still a player.
I get that in Vintage players get emotionally attached to a Deck, Strategy or Archetype (i myself am very attached to ritual based Combo decks) and that attachment has some charm and can leads to great pilots and innovators. Shops is by no means dead or unplayable.

I may be biased because iam primarily a Storm player: I think the Chalice restriction was very much needed and it didn't hurt the archetype incredibly much, I think the Golem restriction was defensible but not incredibly necessary. It seemed that while Power level was a factor, the general dislike of prison strategies of some vocal people may have have been a non small factor as well.

This is just my view on the subject though and iam fairly new to the format so i might be missing the greater picture.

@Evoclipse said:

Shouldn't we move to a thread "Is Shops under powered and should Gush be restricted" ?

This is secretly the topic of every thread on TMD.

keep gush a 4 of until all the non gush players quit so they can live out their fantasy of gush mirrors where they can then eternally gush into each others faces

@cYnic said:

You can make the same argument towards shop decks not really trying to spec specifically for gush decks as well though. It feels to me as if many shops pilots jam the same cards into their deck and insist that the format is steered in a way that allows them to beat the most prevalent decks. When TKS/Eldrazi started to become popular it coincided with a huge, temporary boost to their win rate. Mostly because the best gush lists were those that essentially preboarded for the mirror. Now that they have shifted in their approach the same old, stale shops lists proceed to lose more.
Not actually that surprising.

Everything in a Shops deck in tailored for the metagame, and Gush decks. From Hangarback, to Ravagar, to Triskelion. Hell back in the day, Some Shop decks didn't play Sphere because it's not good against big blue, but obviously Sphere is very good against Gush so now they play 4-8

the following statements are true
i love and play vintage storm.
mentor is dumb
golem was fine and can just be un-restricted. (yea storm player wants golem back)
gush is fine-ish
at least 1 person at my lgs has stoped playing vintage because of the lodestone restriction
and of course "modo is a quality program". 🙂

Which decks are Big Blue and which are blue control? What is the distinguishing factor in this particular data set?

@Aaron-Patten said:

Which decks are Big Blue and which are blue control? What is the distinguishing factor in this particular data set?

Big Blue - traditional Drain lists with the broken Blue core of tutors, will, tinker. Vault key or painter in various forms.

Blue control - traditional Drain lists playing a more "fair" game like landstill, Blue Moon, Blue Angels, etc.

According to tables, Big Blue has >50% wins agains each other archetypes in particular, but still has only 48% wins against the field overall. I just can't understand how it's possible.

@Kasparadi Because it went 0% against a couple archetypes (0-1 dredge, 0-3 combo, 0-1 eldrazi). Note that 0% means 0-X, whereas the division by zero errors indicate there where no matches played.

@diophan div by 0 error. you mean someone cast doomsday in a sub game of Scheherazade with hive mind in play.

@Prospero I completely agree. I'm on the 'restrict Preordain/Probe/Gush' plan just because if you're NOT playing those cards, you're specifically playing to beat them. That's not healthy, in my mind.

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