Thoughts on restrictions

Smmenen

@Smmenen said:

You conveniently omitted the first sentence of the paragraph you quoted:

I didn't "conveniently" omit anything.

You took the opposite position that I presented, and then presented the quote in support of it, but omitted the very sentence that establishes why my reading is correct. In terms of developing a persuasive argument, that is effectively convenient to your argument, whether intentional or not.

If I wanted to omit something, I wouldn't have provided a link.

As if I couldn't find the rest of the explanation without a link? The selective quotation functions as a critical omission by itself. Adding the link does not make this less so.

Rather, I quoted the part that was relevant to my mind.

Of course. Because you disagreed with my reading of the DCI's explanation.

I do not think anybody believes "workshop decks becoming more and more popular" is a problem. In fact, while nitpicking on my quotes, you neglected to quote the second sentence.

"However, too many games are effectively decided by the first player's first turn."

No, if you read my post more carefully, you'll see that my reading depends upon the second sentence. The fact that "too many games are decided on the first turn" is a function of the increasing popularity of Shops.

The DCI isn't talking about combo here. They meaning of the second sentence is clearly related to the first. The "problem" of too many games "effectively decided by the first players first turn" is clearly, in the DCI's view, a consequence of Shops popularity/performance.

If you re-read my previous post on this more carefully, you'll see my phrasing was carefully constructed to acknowledge this:

The effect of Chalice on Moxen, by the published decision, was a consideration in their decision, but the main predicate was Shops' performance in the metagame. The restriction of Chalice was clearly an attempt to regulate Shop's metagame dominance, not primarily a reaction to the "unique appeal of Moxen."

Actually, if you were to go by the DCI's wording, the restriction of Chalice had nothing to do with Workshop metagame dominance as the only problem they referenced was games being decided on the first turn.

Just because two sentences are separated does not make them unrelated.

Consider:

I climbed Mount Everest today. I need to get some rest because I'm exhausted.

The fact of my exhaustion, and need for rest, is not a general trait or feature of my disposition. It's clearly a consequence of my climb/exertion.

Your reading is simply wrong, both as a natural reading of the explanation as well as a matter of fact.

Saying: "Workshops are increasingly popular. Too many games are effectively decided on the first turn. " is analogous. The problem articulated in the second sentence is a function of the first.

In fact, you talked about Shop performance in the metagame but this isn't even mentioned. A deck can be popular but still perform poorly.
We know it performed well, but DCI wording does not even reference this.

The fact that we know it performed well establishes this as a tacit premise. Anyone following Vintage at the time reading the explanation was expected to understand this.

All this being said, this is only looking at DCI wording. I'm sure we all have our own beliefs on why Chalice was restricted and whether it was a mistake or not. I'm not interested in getting into that.

Nor am I. The explanation presented by the DCI, and the events and context around it, make it clear that Workshops were the reason Chalice was restricted.

If you really don't believe that Workshops were reason Chalice was restricted, ask members of the DCI themselves. I'm sure anyone in the DCI would tell you.

Additional, I know you're a lawyer, Steve, but please try to avoid deconstructing people's posts as though you are in a courtroom. It's extremely exhausting to discuss anything in this fashion. You do not have to deconstruct my post as though you are cross-examining a witness in a court of law. Try to understand the meaning behind my post rather than nit-picking at minutia.

Had you carefully read my post, which you responded to, I would not have had to do that. My original post made it clear that I had read, and was familiar with, the DCI's explanation and text. Clearly explaining the flaws in your reasoning necessitated that approach.

I understand your meaning. Your argument is tantamount to claiming that Workshops were not the core cause of the restriction of Chalice. Virtually everyone knows that not to be true. It's almost too absurd for debate.

Hrishi

@Smmenen I asked you not to deconstruct my post and understand it's meaning instead, and you respond by quoting my post, sentence by sentence and deconstructing it. It's exhausting and I'm not interested.

I should have taken my own advice to myself. I'm no longer interested in engaging in discussion with you in this thread. Have a good day, Steve.

Smmenen

@Hrishi said:

@Smmenen I asked you not to deconstruct my post and understand it's meaning instead, and you respond by quoting my post, sentence by sentence and deconstructing it. It's exhausting and I'm not interested.

I would request that people who reply to my posts carefully read my posts before replying, but you didn't do that either. You replied with a point that I explicitly referenced and acknowledged in my OP. It was built into the very edifice of the original post you responded to, but responded as if it wasn't.

Requesting that someone address or reply to a debate or point of disagreement in a particular way or manner is unreasonable if that manner is the clearest and most effective way of making the counter-argument. For example the rules discussion regarding Priest/Cage interaction necessitated that kind of deconstruction. Similarly, here, the very nature of the debate is interpretation, and deconstructing the DCI's statement. Asking me to defend my reading the DCI's statement without being able to break down your analysis into it's constitutive parts is like asking me to box with one hand tied behind my back. It's unreasonable.

As regards your overall meaning, I addressed this head on at the end of my previous post:

"I understand your meaning. Your argument is tantamount to claiming that Workshops were not the core cause of the restriction of Chalice. Virtually everyone knows that not to be true. It's almost too absurd for debate."

Hrishi

@Smmenen Alright, on good faith, I'll continue this, but please try to keep in mind that you do not have to pounce on the slightest misstep that a person makes. For example, pouncing on @ajfirecracker saying Chalice was banned rather than restricted was absurd. I'm guessing that final sentence was edited in, as it wasn't in your original reply?

"I understand your meaning. Your argument is tantamount to claiming that Workshops were not the core cause of the restriction of Chalice. Virtually everyone knows that not to be true. It's almost too absurd for debate."

This is not my argument. When deconstructing my post, surely my meaning couldn't have escaped you like that? My argument was that Chalice itself was possibly chosen as a candidate (out of many other possible candidates) for restriction because the ability to play Moxen was held in high regard. I believe DCI's wording itself says something to that effect here.

If I ever claimed that Workshop dominance itself was not the cause for restriction, I apologise, but that was never my meaning.

@Smmenen lost to storm. why did i choose to not play force of will. lost to a 2/2 that says i can't play the cards in my deck. why did i choose to not play swords.

force of will is only uncastable when my opponent does somthing that cant be countered.
swords is only uncastable if my opponent has 0 creatures, or bad if he has unlimited creatures.

the number of cards force of will interacts with is 60-the number of lands in my opponents deck
the number of cards swords interacts with is 60-the lands-the spells-the artifacts-planswalkers... if you were to make a bet on whether force of will or swords will get cast in any given game of vintage the odds would indicate force should get cast more often.

if you make the choice based on which spell has more chance of not being dead force of will has a better chance of being cast. which in turn means i should play force of will and me choosing not to do results in my lose to storm being my own fault. while choosing not to play swords is not my fault because the numbers clearly indicate i should play force of will.

the end result is that because i made a choice to not play either of the cards when i get punished for my not playing force of will 25/60* chance its easily acceptable as my fault where when i get punished for not playing swords 8/60** chance clearly i am being punished by variance.

*number of cards people force of will in storm
**draw 1 of the 2 bears that happen to be relevant in any given matchup

just for reference cards i hate to lose to (mentor, thotnot,trinisphere, misc other 2/2s) pretty much ok with any thing that isnt those. im ok dieing to these guys but stil anonyed when it happens, ( 3 mana thalia, lodestone, pyromancer, trike, 2 mana thalia, revoker)

Smmenen

@Hrishi said:

@Smmenen Alright, on good faith, I'll continue this, but please try to keep in mind that you do not have to pounce on the slightest misstep that a person makes. For example, pouncing on @ajfirecracker saying Chalice was banned rather than restricted was absurd. I'm guessing that final sentence was edited in, as it wasn't in your original reply?

"I understand your meaning. Your argument is tantamount to claiming that Workshops were not the core cause of the restriction of Chalice. Virtually everyone knows that not to be true. It's almost too absurd for debate."

This is not my argument. When deconstructing my post, surely my meaning couldn't have escaped you like that?

Indeed it did.

The issue being debated is whether 1) Workshop popularity/performance OR 2) whether there is some other principle independent of Workshops (specifically, that playing "moxen" is a format goal) that forms the (main) predicate for the DCI's decision.

Option 2 was first articulated in this thread by this statement "The Chalice of the Void ban, for instance, was predicated on the unique appeal of Moxen."

The structure, text, and clear import of your original post was that you disagreed with (1), and supported (2). Each subsequent post has been a debate of whether the text of the DCI's explanation better supports (1) or (2).

My position has been that (1) is the core predicate, but that the DCI considered (2) a relevant factor (but not the main concern). In fact, that's almost exactly what I said in my OP.

My argument was that Chalice itself was possibly chosen as a candidate (out of many other possible candidates) for restriction because the ability to play Moxen was held in high regard. I believe DCI's wording itself says something to that effect here.

Yes, but why was Chalice a candidate for restriction, and how was scope for other possible candidates drawn? I believe the explanation and context answers this: an attempt to regulate Workshops.

If it weren't, then the DCI didn't provide nearly enough information to understand this decision. I mean, why choose Chalice over Stony Silence or any other card that negates Moxen? And, why were cards even being considered for restriction in the first place? It's almost impossible to generate a plausible textual reading that writes out Workshops the way you initially did.

Chalice would have been restricted long before had (2) been the operative principle.

If I ever claimed that Workshop dominance itself was not the cause for restriction, I apologise, but that was never my meaning.

Well, you did just say that both explicitly and deductive logical inference. You said:

"You can argue that this reasoning is incorrect or anything like that, but if you take their reasoning at face value, "

Then, you said, " if you were to go by the DCI's wording, the restriction of Chalice had nothing to do with Workshop metagame dominance..."

So, if your argument is that we should take a pure textual reading, then that logically rules out Workshops metagame performance as the core predicate.

Hrishi

@Smmenen Yes, but as my own quote says, I'm not talking about what I claimed at all. I was merely talking about DCI wording and what one could infer from it. Surely the DCI's wording itself shows you that the ability to play Moxen was held in high regard?

In fact, now that I remember, didn't you talk about this very issue in that episode of SMIP? About how the DCI specifically referenced the ability to play Moxen? It seems to flow logically (and please correct me if I am wrong) that if you wanted to simply address the power of Workshops, the DCI could have gone after Lodestone Golem right away.

Smmenen

@Hrishi said:

@Smmenen Yes, but as my own quote says, I'm not talking about what I claimed at all.

LOL. This statement has to represent some kind of inflection point in this thread.

Why would you develop an argument that differs from what you believe to be true? That's sophistry or, alternatively, argument for the sake of argument.

Your selective omission of the first sentence of the DCI's explanation removed the critical context that illuminated the meaning of the subsequent statements, and made it seem like you were arguing predicate (1) over (2). Hence, how I interpreted your line of argument.

I was merely talking about DCI wording and what one could infer from it. Surely the DCI's wording itself shows you that the ability to play Moxen was held in high regard? In fact, now that I remember, didn't you talk about this very issue in that episode of SMIP? About how the DCI specifically referenced the ability to play Moxen?'

For the third or fourth time, I never denied that the 'ability to play Moxen' formed a consideration in the DCI's decision matrix. What I am denying is that this consideration forms the core operative principle or main "predicate" for the DCI's decision.

Anyway, I think we are clear now.

Hrishi

@Smmenen said:

Why would you develop an argument that differs from what you believe to be true? That's sophistry or, alternatively, argument for the sake of argument.

Clearly because it doesn't matter what I personally believe. What matters is what the DCI believes when it comes to B&R policy and looking into their reasoning is useful rather than talking about my own personal beliefs as to why any action was taken.

Smmenen

@Hrishi said:

@Smmenen said:

Why would you develop an argument that differs from what you believe to be true? That's sophistry or, alternatively, argument for the sake of argument.

Clearly because it doesn't matter what I personally believe. What matters is what the DCI believes when it comes to B&R policy and looking into their reasoning is useful rather than talking about my own personal beliefs as to why any action was taken.

But your "personal beliefs," at least in this case, are not made up out of thin air. They are grounded in something. I assume that "something" is your experience and understanding of the format at the time the restriction happened.

To that I would add a holistic textual reading of the DCI explanation.

The DCI's opening sentence was about the popularity of Workshops. The reading you were presenting earlier, in support of predicate (2), omitted that critical context-setting sentence, and was logically flawed because it ignored the meaning of the sentences in relation to each other. As I pointed out, the "problem" they were addressing was clearly a consequence of the popularity of Shops, in their view (see my analogy to being tired and climbing Mt. Everest). Thus, even now, your "reading" of their explanation continues to ignore the importance of that sentence, in defense a flawed textual reading that contradicts your own beliefs. That's pretty silly to me.

vaughnbros

I don't really understand the OP. R&D's solution to Vintage is already to create a hatebear for everything. Vintage has really just turned into standard on steroids as we've reached a critical mass of these grossly overpowered hate bears. They just seem to continually get power creeped up every set. No one even considers running the premier hatebears from just a couple of years ago, i.e. Qasali Pridgemage, Magus of the Moon, ect. They've also built them more and more 1-sided as things have gone on. Thalia? Oh who cares I don't play non-creature spells. Spirit of the Lab? Oh I don't draw extra cards. Ect. There's no real interesting lines of sequencing or combat just drop them in, and swing until your opponent is dead. Its not even really a budget deck anymore with cards like Containment Priest and Cavern of Souls costing a million dollars.

On the other hand we have the continued bias to print highly efficient blue cards. Like did blue really need to be the king of Planeswalkers on top of already being the king of instants, counterspells, ect.? Then we have the people who refuse to believe that this is occurring, and has been occurring since the dawn of magic... Mana denial is basically the only thing that's ever been printed that has any effect on these decks, but printings of decent mana denial cards have become fewer and farther between over the years. They are pretty much just relegated to white and artifacts now (even though its technically supposed to be a red effect in the color wheel).

I ranted a little more than I expect, but anyway the point is that R&D is terrible at balancing the game. Restrictions are necessary, and they need to be more aggressive about them before our format dies again.

Smmenen

@vaughnbros said: There's no real interesting lines of sequencing or combat just drop them in, and swing until your opponent is dead.

I really don't agree with that. Sequencing bears around countermagic and removal and to best attack your opponent's strategy is actually a vital skill of the hatebears pilot, and far from obvious in many situations. In addition, determining the specific ratios and quantities of hatebears to best attack the metagame is also far from evident. There are probably multiple equilibria for any given metagame.

I ranted a little more than I expect, but anyway the point is that R&D is terrible at balancing the game.

That's not their charge. At least, not for Vintage. That's why the DCI exists. Does anyone think that Alpha or Legends were balanced sets? They intentionally designed imbalanced sets. If they designed balance sets, we would have far few Vintage playables.

vaughnbros

@Smmenen said:

@vaughnbros said: There's no real interesting lines of sequencing or combat just drop them in, and swing until your opponent is dead.

I really don't agree with that. Sequencing bears around countermagic and removal and to best attack your opponent's strategy is actually a vital skill of the hatebears pilot, and far from obvious in many situations. In addition, determining the specific ratios and quantities of hatebears to best attack the metagame is also far from evident. There are probably multiple equilibria for any given metagame.

I already wrote a response to this. It used to be the case, but not since they power creeped the hell out of all the hatebears. Play my 2 mana thalia followed by my 3 mana thalia is not difficult sequencing.

Smmenen

I think that's unduly dismissive of the skills needed to optimally sequence hatebears. The presence of so many good hate bears actually makes this more difficult, not less.

The presence of so many good hate bears also makes restrictions less, not more, necessary, imo. It also makes the format more accessible, not less.

All the hate for hate bears is truly mystifying. It should be a recruitment tool for Vintage, not a complaint.

vaughnbros

I think that's unduly dismissive of the skills needed to optimally sequence hatebears. The presence of so many good hate bears actually makes this more difficult, not less.

Its much easier to sequence things when they have no negative effect on you, and have very little synergy with each other. Magus of the Moon used to require that you sequenced your lands correctly to ensure that you didn't lock yourself out of an off-color. Qasali Pridgemage used to require you to make tough decisions and when to sacrifice it, and whether to use the exalted trigger or attack with multiple bears. These cards were much more intricate and took time to consider the impacts of playing it / using its abilities.

All the hate for hate bears is truly mystifying. It should be a recruitment tool for Vintage, not a complaint.

Its the hate for the power creep of creatures. It obsoletes years and years of creatures that have been printed that were previously our favorites to play with. I loved the original fish creatures, spiketail hatchling, lavamancer, ect. These creatures are mostly just garbage now. I love Morphling, and Masticore. Atrocious cards now. (Even morphling and masticore obseleted other creatures) This power creep hasn't occurred with other card types, at least as dramatically, so you don't see people getting disgruntled about it. Creatures that were printed just 5 or 6 years ago are already becoming obsolete. The power creep of creatures wasn't just a finite point in time, its been occurring continuously and its awful.

dshin

@vaughnbros

Let me approach it from the angle of the hater of hatebears. I think Mentor is hatebears' worst matchup. And so, if you want to see less hatebears in the metagame, I think you don't want to see Mentor get restricted. But Mentor is too strong currently, so we need Workshop back at full strength to keep it in check. That can be done by unrestricting Chalice/Lodestone...but then Workshop will be too strong again! So I'm suggesting that carefully designed hate (not necessarily in the form of bears) might be able to do the trick of keeping either deck from dominating the metagame.

Obviously, this road is filled with perils of unintended consequences, so I wanted to lay out the possibility to see what others with more knowledge and perspective might think.

Edit: With that said, I do share your opinion that the quality of hatebear design has deteriorated over time. They take less skill to use than their predecessors, by virtue of featuring continuous effects rather than activated abilities. I wish this were not the case.

@Smmenen said:

I think that's unduly dismissive of the skills needed to optimally sequence hatebears. The presence of so many good hate bears actually makes this more difficult, not less.

The presence of so many good hate bears also makes restrictions less, not more, necessary, imo. It also makes the format more accessible, not less.

the presence of all the hate bears makes it more difficult? how exactly? the deck almost builds itself at this point its .
8 thalia 4 revoker 4 contain priest 4 spirit of david bowie 4 thot not
4 waste 1 strip 2 karakus 4 cavern 2 ghost quarter 7ish plains
1 lotus 1 mox 4 plow
and then you choice of 10 cards from the following list based on your meta
stony silence/null rod/RIP/cage/santum prelate/crusable/displacer/stoneforge/cannonist/kataki/thorn/trinisphere/chalice/

Smmenen

@snowydude said:

@Smmenen said:

I think that's unduly dismissive of the skills needed to optimally sequence hatebears. The presence of so many good hate bears actually makes this more difficult, not less.

The presence of so many good hate bears also makes restrictions less, not more, necessary, imo. It also makes the format more accessible, not less.

the presence of all the hate bears makes it more difficult? how exactly? the deck almost builds itself at this point its .
8 thalia 4 revoker 4 contain priest 4 spirit of david bowie 4 thot not
4 waste 1 strip 2 karakus 4 cavern 2 ghost quarter 7ish plains
1 lotus 1 mox 4 plow
and then you choice of 10 cards from the following list based on your meta
stony silence/null rod/RIP/cage/santum prelate/crusable/displacer/stoneforge/cannonist/kataki/thorn/trinisphere/chalice/

When the hatebears are of clearly uneven or unequal quality, then sequencing is more obvious than when the cards are all really good.

You've built a White eldrazi deck. Here's the Winner of the Bazaar of Moxen this year:

RUPPON Michael - 5CC Fish - Top 8 Vintage

Main Deck 60
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Scab-Clan Berserker
3 Dark Confidant
3 Mantis Rider
2 Grand Abolisher
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Reflector Mage
3 Containment Priest
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland

Sideboard 15
1 Grand Abolisher
1 Containment Priest
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reflector Mage
2 Wasteland
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Stony Silence
3 Izzet Staticaster

This deck features all kinds of difficult sequencing decisions. Even if you update it with new cards.

BazaarOfBaghdad

Deckbuilding for hatebears is incredibly tough, certainly while this is in the pioneering stage.

Wasteland package or no?
Play the Null Rod package and give up the fast mana, or play the fast mana to have consistent t. 1 plays?
What colors or cards are worth splashing for? Is Ancestral/Walk worth its own splash? Confidant?
Do you give up on a draw engine?
Do you include removal? What kind?
Do you include SFM package?
Do you include Black tutors?
Go Tribal?
How do you get past the bigger creatures in Shops? Eldrazi?
What's your anti-Decay plan against Oath?
Do you maindeck the swingy Containment Priests?
How do you stop Vault/Key if you're not on the Null Rod plan?
Does White have enough effective artifact hate to avoid the superior red and green offerings?
Include Mental Misstep or not? the free Gitaxian Probe or not?
What do you name with Meddling Mage?
How many copies of each "bear"?
What's the blue-card count (including planned SB changes) for possible FOW inclusion?
How much Dredge hate if you maindeck Priests?

These are just a few of the endless deckbuilding decisions that came to mind, and these riddles are not easy to solve. Deckbuilding for other archetypes is much easier as you have established lists, the metagame is less important on card choice (compared to hatebears, though very important admittedly on whether to run a given deck at all), and the removal answers are very generic - FoW counters ANY spell, STP "counters" ANY creature.

I like Hatebears since I like going Rogue. If not for Hatebears, I'd probably play Belcher or dedicated DarkDepths combo more, but those decks have a hard time recovering if the initial cog piece gets countered, which usually happens. At that point, it is the Blue deck that is pretty mindless instead as it can just play all the draw-more cards and horde counters.

Playing Hatebears is not so easy either (though I'm a terrible player). I'm constantly realizing subtle play mistakes like pauses, lack of pauses, Caverns names, Caverns sequencing, Meddling Mage, pitching FOW fodder, Misstepping too early or too late, Wasting the wrong lands, playing Moxen too early or late, exposing lands too early or late, keeping Quellers in hand or playing them on an empty stack or countering the wrong spell, missing Karakas bounce options (either side), Displacer bounce options (including forgetting my own Priest interaction, fetching for the wrong land given three colors, playing Flash creatures main phase when the possible opposing counterspell doesn't matter, forgetting what are key cards, not playing to outs, not playing to opponent's outs, sideboarding. Time and again I find myself screwing up and losing percentage points.

Back on topic, for me, the least fun commonly-played card is Tangle Wire

im adding mantis rider to my list of things im not ok with dieing to in vintage. also there are very few hate bears in your "hatebear" list in fact its just thalia and containment. also 1 wasteland what a monster. i always saw hate bears as being the deck with 16 creatures that have "dont do X" written on them. this is more like moderately effective aggro midrange. that list seems fine wouldnt be too unhappy to play it. not sure how it beats storm or vault+key but it looks like it should have positive matchups in everything else.

wait was that wat people are moaning about? the only things in that list i see as not really vintage cards are mayor and mantis. and i might question noble a bit but ive never doubted if birds was good so slide on that. if 5c bros are why people are mad then i am truely just confused.

look if you want to build the jund of vintage thats fine by me

i happen to prefer winning my games of magic without 45 minutes of work that such a list is clearly going to incur