Sub-Forum in Vintage Strategy for Shitty Single Card Discussion Threads



  • Every spoiler season we all get to see a dozen threads about 'single card discussion' of cards which are rarely even playable. There's very little useful discussion that takes place in these in general, because rarely do people even create new decks in those thread with the cards discussed. Can we perhaps move all single card discussion threads (ie. [KLD] 'Insert Shitty Spoiled Card Here') to a single sub-forum dedicated to collect such threads?


  • TMD Supporter

    I agree. Everyone wants to be the one to 'break out the tech', but a majority of the cards (read: So far all but one) are completely FUCKING TERRIBLE and the people are just reaching for straws.



  • I think this kind of behavior just reinforces the authoritative snobish mentality we had in the Old Mana Drain. Of course I'm biased because I love a spoiler discussion (and podcasts about spoilers ;) ), but of all the cards I posted for Kaladesh here I think you could say only Morbid Curiosity is a bad card. Other than that post, I find only Metallurgic Summonings was an unnecessary topic on an unplayable Kaladesh card. The rest I find are very good discussions on cards that can be good to play. Soly thinks only the counter is a playable card, but a lot of people would say Kaladesh can bring more to the table. So are we supposed not to discuss this? Or shouldn't you just not read the topics? I never understood why some TMD members were so worried about spoiler discussion. I'm not a regular MUD player, for example, so I'm always interested in hearing what Shops players think of cards like Ghirapur Orrery.



  • @fsecco said:

    I think this kind of behavior just reinforces the authoritative snobish mentality we had in the Old Mana Drain. Of course I'm biased because I love a spoiler discussion (and podcasts about spoilers ;) ), but of all the cards I posted for Kaladesh here I think you could say only Morbid Curiosity is a bad card. Other than that post, I find only Metallurgic Summonings was an unnecessary topic on an unplayable Kaladesh card. The rest I find are very good discussions on cards that can be good to play. Soly thinks only the counter is a playable card, but a lot of people would say Kaladesh can bring more to the table. So are we supposed not to discuss this? Or shouldn't you just not read the topics? I never understood why some TMD members were so worried about spoiler discussion. I'm not a regular MUD player, for example, so I'm always interested in hearing what Shops players think of cards like Ghirapur Orrery.

    Some people have a different attitude to new sets. If you are enthused with new cards, great - you should be able to post about them and discuss them. If you are not one who goes through spoilers looking for new things to play, the onslaught of posts really does crowd the Recent list and makes it difficult to follow the topics you care about. I think this is a reasonable feature request though perhaps sharply worded (not that I have much room to talk).



  • @JACO said:

    There's very little useful discussion that takes place in these in general, because rarely do people even create new decks in those thread with the cards discussed.

    Little discussion and much whining is increasingly a problem in most of TMD.

    Rather than a separate sub-forum, how about rules to encourage better discussion regarding these cards? I rather like MTG: The Source's Rules for Single Card Discussion

    @MTG: The Source Said:

    Based on the feedback of the Legacy Adepts and Mods/Admins, all new Single Card Discussion (SCD) threads must follow some basic criteria.

    Previous threads were a often mess since few of these threads provided a context for discussion, so they went downhill fast, if they went anywhere at all. These guidelines are intended to create a framework to discuss the card in the general, competitive Legacy format.

    All opening posts of an SCD thread must address one or more of the following. Threads that don't will be locked when we see them.

    • What deck or archetype can this card be used in and why?
    • How does this card fulfill the role of another card in an existing archetype more effectively than the card it would replace?
    • How has the metagame changed or what new cards exist now to make this card playable?

    Brownie Points:

    • If the SCD card is fairly obscure, include the card text to save us time in looking it up (minimally, casting cost, card type (Sorcery, Instant, Enchantment, etc.) and Oracle text)
    • Ideally, include a sample deck list (even if it's rough) that incorporates the card

    I propose we adopt these rules but amend the fourth rule to require both an image and the full oracle text of the card.

    @ChubbyRain said:

    Some people have a different attitude to new sets. If you are enthused with new cards, great - you should be able to post about them and discuss them. If you are not one who goes through spoilers looking for new things to play, the onslaught of posts really does crowd the Recent list and makes it difficult to follow the topics you care about. I think this is a reasonable feature request though perhaps sharply worded (not that I have much room to talk).

    If you don't want to see the threads, scroll by them and respond to the threads below them.

    A request for deck discussion to be separate from general strategy discussion as was the case on the old TMD was previously declined. I don't see why this would be any different.



  • @ChubbyRain I think this is a seasonal problem, as in spoiler season. I think this issue is aggravated in the recent weeks because of 2 things. First, with Conspiracy and Kaladesh Wizards is actually printing interesting cards like it didn't before. I think there are a lot of cards in both sets that allow thoughtful discussion, and it's something that doesn't happen often - there are sets that are pretty much blank for Vintage. These new sets have a lot of new effects we haven't seen before so they're harder to evaluate in Vintage and community discussions are good for that. Even if to say "no, that won't work".

    The second issue is that we don't even have spoiler "season" anymore. Until the end of the year I guess we'll never stop having spoilers being released. I mean, Conspiracy was just released, I didn't even get my hands on a Leovold and we're already talking about a new release. The dust didn't even settle. And it will be like that until the end of the year since we still have Commander and Planechase releases.

    Anyway, I hated this "stop posting spoilers" attitude then, I'll hate it now. You can just shut the topic down with a few comments on the unplayability of the card. And if someone gets out of hand, posting a lot of unwanted topics, there's always moderation for that.

    I know other forums have a "One Topic To Rule Them All Spoilers" but those are confusing to say the least.



  • @fsecco is any of that incompatible with a sub-forum?



  • @ajfirecracker You do realise a lot of the single-card discussion topics end up becoming deck discussions right? That has happened several times already. Later they become their own topics, but in the early days of a card a lot of lists and results go there. I remember DIg Through Time/Treasure Cruise topics for example. Of course those are the perfect examples since they're broken cards, but it happens with less adopted cards too. So I don't think Spoiler discussion is separated from Strategy discussion.

    Of course, writing things like "[KLD] 'Insert Shitty Spoiled Card Here' " tend to make people less willing to cooperate. ;)



  • @thecravenone I'm hoping Andy will revise his position on that. I know he wants to use the Tags (and I've been trying to get better with this) but there isn't a way to currently to ignore by Tags and that only works if people implement it. There is a way to ignore topics by sub-forum and that seems like the easiest way to implement it.

    @fsecco This set is very interesting, I agree. I just think the best compromise to avoid the "stop posting spoilers" attitude is to give people the ability to ignore said spoilers and @JACO's idea of a sub-forum is the best way to implement that.



  • Personally, unless you think the card is vintage tournament playable, it shouldn't even be posted. We have one spoiler with the op discussing how great it would be for commander. And people keep bringing up commander for the card. That card never should have been spoiled on TMD. This is a Vintage mtg site, not a generic mtg site.

    People just need to think about what they are posting before they post.



  • To be clear, I am not asking for anyone to stop posting new threads about single card discussions (SCD, as they are referred to on The Source, or MTGSalvation, for instance, as @thecravenone alluded to). What I am asking for is a place that they be aggregated to, such that they do not clutter up the existing main Vintage Strategy forum. I think it's more beneficial to have that particular forum act as a repository for more in-depth deck discussions and overall strategy, hence the name.

    It has nothing to do with elitism, such that people want to throw around that word anytime they feel toes might be stepped on. 95% or more of the posts in the single card discussion threads could barely qualify as "strategy," and I think it would be more appropriate if they had their own sub-forum. If those threads to lead to other more fruitful new deck discussion threads - great! It would also be more useful for SCD threads to be centrally collected for when people want to look back historically at a particular card or set to see the sentiment of it at the time, and would be easier to search through historically if they more narrowly cataloged.



  • I hardly notice the subforums at all since I just click the unread button when I visit.


  • Administrators

    This is awesome feedback guys ... I have some ideas that I think might solve all of these concerns without causing new problems, but it requires both some technical work and possibly some buy-in from a few dedicated TMD'ers, and I don't know how long that'll take to implement.

    If, realistically, that just can't happen in reasonable time frame, I'm not totally sure where to go from there ... I agree that single card discussions eat up a lot of space, but it's not like we have a ton of threads to sort through anyway, I fear if we make a 20 sub-boards like the old site, we just end up with 19 dead sub-boards, like the old site.



  • @mickey.nobilis said:

    I hardly notice the subforums at all since I just click the unread button when I visit.

    ^ that



  • @Brass-Man said:

    This is awesome feedback guys ... I have some ideas that I think might solve all of these concerns without causing new problems, but it requires both some technical work and possibly some buy-in from a few dedicated TMD'ers, and I don't know how long that'll take to implement.

    If, realistically, that just can't happen in reasonable time frame, I'm not totally sure where to go from there ... I agree that single card discussions eat up a lot of space, but it's not like we have a ton of threads to sort through anyway, I fear if we make a 20 sub-boards like the old site, we just end up with 19 dead sub-boards, like the old site.

    I use the unread posts feature exclusively, with the occasional exception of the tournament announcements and such...it rarely gets above 15. I dont think its worth the time and hassle to shift and hide the spoiled card threads, but in the end it wont matter to me (or any other unread only guys) because we will see them anyways, and theres never THAT many unread threads so its not a big deal.



  • Would it be worth condensing set spoilers into a single "official" thread for random hype/ light discussion/"is this playable" for cards as they are spoiled for a given set? If people want to have more a detailed discussion about a card, they could write up a post with a better premise than "look it's a new card is it good".



  • I think single card discussion threads of spoiled cards is an important function of TMD, but whether this is a useful request or not I think depends on how people use TMD, as Andy suggested.

    While I don't necessarily disagree with the request, I do think that such threads are valuable, even if the card is unplayable. So, I don't agree with the pejorative implications of the request. There are several reasons for this.

    First of all, threads over new cards can't resolve whether a card will or will not see play. The only thing that can do that is time and empirical data. Therefore, it's a mistake to assume, to extent that the request here assumes this, that card discussions are bad when cards are unplayable but OK if the card is playable. That can't be determined with certainty a priori. Therefore, if the standard is or should be that only playable cards be discussed, then no new card should be discussed, because that can't be factually known.

    Secondly, and this flows from the first point, the value of the discussion flows not from a conclusion as to whether a card will see play or not (since that can't be known) but a presentation of views, opinions, and claims as to why it may or may not be; that is, analysis.

    If the value from the threads is the analysis, and not claims of playability, then it shouldn't really matter whether the card is good or not in the end. It's like an exam question with no right or wrong answer. The value comes in the reasoning, not the conclusion. That's why I find discussions of unplayable cards often just as valuable as discussions of playable cards. Explaining why a card won't see play - when it's not easily provable by pointing to a clearly superior card that doesn't see play - is often a very valuable exercise. It helps us generate insights, criteria, and frameworks that refine our understanding of why and where cards do see play. Therefore, analysis of ultimately unplayable cards is often of great value.

    Finally, the Vintage community has missed many playable cards (JTMS) or underestimated great cards. Perhaps we could have benefited from discussing cards that many if not most thought were unplayable had those threads existed. That said, I don't know whether a sub forum would be valuable or not, but if it marginalizes these discussions, and it doesn't clutter or crowd out more valuable discussions, I don't really see a problem.



  • It's a matter of degree but I can think of at least one card that was barely playable at spoiler time and turned into a massive format pillar: Dark Confidant.

    It did take some B/R action to get there. But I think in certain cases it's valuable to talk about cards with unique effects or in-the-ballpark rates. And if you allow that on bonfire marginal cards, there's really no reasonable way to police any of it?



  • I agree with Steve on most of this post. I still think a sub forum for spoiler discussion might be neat. Its not inherently necessary but i like tidy forums. I understand the fear of having too many sub forums and such having a ton of dead ones, so this might be a counterargument for such a feature.

    @mickey-nobilis said:

    I hardly notice the subforums at all since I just click the unread button when I visit.

    Yeah, i do as well, but this isn't really relevant here, is it? I mean the only reason i mostly use the unread feature is that i am currently pretty active and read a lot on TMD. This might change and there are a lot of users, that don't read the newest threads daily. For those users the unread feature isnt really useful since it is overcrowded by way to much stuff. Those users do want to navigate the subforums to find a thread they are interested in reading, and for that reason a clean uncluttered Forum is very useful.



  • @Evoclipse Me (and presumably at least six other people by way of upvote) are giving constructive feedback on how we use the forums to better steer @Brass-Man's judgment on how to maintain them. That might not be relevant to you, but it might be relevant to him, and he has far more power over my browsing experience.



  • @snowydude said:

    @mickey.nobilis said:

    I hardly notice the subforums at all since I just click the unread button when I visit.

    ^ that

    Ditto. Ever since I discovered the magic of swipe left on mobile it's the only thing I use.


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