@Senor_Bisquick I agree that this is a deck that was severely hampered by the restriction of Chalice. In older builds of the deck, it was running some number of flusters and mindbreak traps instead of missteps. Chalice helps out here, as does scab clan, for the storm and several other match ups. A card I have been enjoying in this deck is impulse, as it efficiently lets you move through your deck and dodges chalice/misstep.

As far as sudden shock goes, I've found its more for the token generator decks than the the Eldrazi decks.

Speaking of early plays, what about Snapcaster? I had not previously noticed the 4th trinket mage, how has he been? Similarly, I'm curious as to how the nullrod matchup is. Finally, had you considered any other eldrazi (deepfiend? smasher?)

@Soly Scab-Clan is great. Have considered moving up to three.

@Senor_Bisquick said:

What are your thoughts on the new Chandra? What roles do you think she would fill?

I have not tested her because MTGO is currently a far cry from real Vintage, but I envisioned that new Chandra would play a similar role, but can come down early and more consistently than waiting to get to 6 mana. While Flamecaller can board wipe against tokens, I feel like it's not that important with EE and Rolling Earthquake from the board. New Chandra can control the board earlier as it can hit opposing TKS, Delver, and various hate bears. She can also help ramp to the larger game ending threats with her RR ability.

In the end, Flamecaller might just be better, but in a deck that can't really take advantage of Dack's +2, new Chandra seems to fit a similar void and can actually interact with other creatures besides artifacts. Dack is better at stealing Blightsteel's, but they are few and far between these days. Just a thought.

Also, I love te 3/1 split on Moons/Moon-man. That's an approach I'll have to try myself.

@Senor_Bisquick said:

it was a pleasure to meet and play against @The Atog Lord

Likewise! Great to meet you. And congratulations on the victory.

So, I'm fooling around with this deck to play for a local event, and in keeping with the discussion of the thread, I tried out no missteps (and ponder/brainstorm) with chalice instead. What I found is that the resulting build pushed even more to the style of slamming threats and locking the opponent out. Therefore, I put a Tinker package in the open slots that fits to that theme:

Artifact (14)
1x Black Lotus
1x Chalice of the Void
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Sapphire
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sol Ring
1x Trinisphere
Planeswalker (4)
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
1x Dack Fayden
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (17)
2x Ancient Tomb
1x Flooded Strand
6x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Shivan Reef
1x Volcanic Island
Creature (12)
1x Consecrated Sphinx
1x Keranos, God of Storms
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Myr Battlesphere
4x Thought-Knot Seer
4x Trinket Mage
Enchantment (3)
3x Blood Moon
Instant (7)
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Force of Will
2x Mana Drain
Sorcery (3)
1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Transmute Artifact

Inspired a bit by BKelly's evil oath deck, I put trinisphere as an additional option on top of chalice for 0 to deal with the new Paridoxical Outcome decks as well as giving more game vs Storm. Transmute Artifact also works as a strong way to leverage Drain mana. I don't know if that means I should play more Drains, I'm not sure. Finally, I've been messing with Ensnaring Bridge as a sideboard card in such an already artifact focused deck (City in a Bottle might be cool too, but I don't have access to one).

Results with the deck:

Played 2x TKS Ravager shops, 2x Paradoxical of some sort, and Dredge.

went 1-1 vs shops, beat dredge, and got that "turn 1 vintage format" experience from both Paradoxical Outcome decks.

In the end I feel like if it was still a Gush Mentor heavy era, then this would have done better, but Mana Drain is really slow and was never useful and TKS was cute, but in the end not too effective. Trinisphere and being able to Trinket for Chalice was very good, but not enough to carry the whole deck. Seems like you'd do better just playing as shops.

@structuremole

Thanks for the feedback and report. You may very well be right in your assessment. I've been testing out a list similar to yours, and I've continued to struggle against Paradoxical Outcome decks. I'll likely tinker with it a bit more, but I suspect I'll move on from it soon enough.

On a side note, Brad Gutkin's Blue Moon list from EE seems great. Scab-clan is a great way of handling Outcomes etc.

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@structuremole How did the shops matchups play out? As well, what was your board? I agree, Trinisphere is probably not where this deck wants to be right now. Why play a blue control deck if you're going to just wind up playing a worse version of Shops. I also noticed very little in the way of an active draw and/or counter package and am curious as to the thinking behind it.

@Senor_Bisquick Scab Clan was fantastic, even against shops four times in the swiss. As well, the sudden shocks do double duty in preventing those pesky ravagers from growing out of control.

@waz

To give some context, I knew from deckbuilding with some other friends coming to the event, that much work had gone into developing tuned Paradoxical outcome decks and I wanted to try some tools vs them. At the 17 man event, there was no less than 6 Paradoxical outcome events with 2 of them making top 4. Trinisphere was part of this hedge as well as proactive threats instead of a more normal suite of counterspells to try and beat defense grid. With all due respect to your success in the Swiss, there seemed to be many key actors not present at EE5.

You're not wrong about it essentially being blue trying to emulate shops, but that was actually my intent. To try and get the best of both worlds and have the shops-like edge vs combo and blue tools vs shops. The games vs shops were very mulligan dependent, but I had lots of tools and would have won the 2nd match if game 3 hadn't been a mull to 5 with 1 mana source.

That all being said, the attempt at dealing with combo was not as good as I hope, but I was happy since I'd never been able to try the archetype before and it was quite fun. Hopefully you who is more familiar can think of where to go from here.

@structuremole I agree. I was also fortunate to play 4 Shops decks in the swiss, and was be able to keep my gush opponents off their threats long enough to line up their threats with my answers. I also didn't see any paradoxical outcome around, which isn't to say it wasn't there, but I still haven't had the opportunity to play against it (as far as I know. I got t1'd by oath in game 1 round 1 followed by vault key in game 2), and therefore am unfamiliar with how to formulate a plan against it.

How was 6cmc Chandra for you, as well as how was the battleball? Would putting some counters/disruptive elements back in (maybe fluster?) have helped the combo matchup and given you more time to set up/lock the game down?

@waz

Battle ball as a tinker win con is mostly a hedge against removal and enemy dacks and that didn't ever come up. But, it was essentially as game ending as Blightsteel and won the game I turn 1'd it on. I did hard cast it in a game too which I don't think would have been conceivable for Blightsteel or Sphinx of the steel wind.

I don't know where exactly to put my opinion on 6 mana Chandra, because mana drain into big threat is so rare of a play these days. I was always of two minds for either putting in more drains to get more consistent big threats, or to give up on trying to keep that 2 mana up. That all being said about drain, the one game Chandra came up, she won the game against dredge even with the opponent blowing up my two cages after I played her. The ability to wrath the board and draw you through dead cards cannot be understated. Maybe worth moving to the board over rolling earthquake to side in only for creature heavy matchups, though.

I do think pulling at least something like spell pierce back into the deck and trying flusters and maybe even ceremonious reflections in the board to generally have more counterspell ammunition will be the the direction I'll try next. I did want to keep things free of mental misstep targets for the most part and allow chalice for 1, but it does need something in that vein. Additionally, I was thinking to put vault/key as a way to leverage trinket mages as a win con better.

last edited by structuremole
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