[AER] Pia's Revolt



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    This card seems insane in vintage. It doesn't even have to be in a combo with lotus, you could simply cast a pulverize with a bunch of artifacts on the table and get some value back.



  • @gkraigher It lets Bomberman/Kelly Oath combo out through 2 Thorns.



  • @Topical_Island How does it let them combo through two thorns? Start with lotus, this and salvagers in play. Sacrifice lotus for WWW, trigger Revolution, opponent takes 3 damage. You now spend WW to return the lotus, and have to spend the other W plus one additional mana to recast it, so you're losing mana there, unless you consider the combo to be turning it into a recastable lightning bolt, which I guess is fine once its happening but doesn't guarantee that you're going to actually kill them the turn you get it going.



  • @rikter Correction. Upon actually reading the card correctly... it doesn't do any of the things I just said... (It does let you likely win in that situation though, since you are probably putting them in a situation where they have to let you have a mana-loop pretty quickly or they just die to the life loss.)


  • Administrators

    It lets you combo with Bomberman through 1 Thorn of Amethyst ... but a lot of cards that cost 2R at sorcery speed can answer a single Thorn of Amethyst.

    Rack and Ruin is a card that costs 2R that really does let you combo off with Bomberman through 2 Thorn of Amethyst. However, Rack and Ruin can also be used at instant speed, can let you combo through Trinispheres and Null Rods and Chalices in addition to Spheres, and is significantly more valuable in any game where you're not trying to go off with the combo - e.g. you can use it to kill two threats in a situation where this card would end up with you dead.

    Rack and Ruin is not currently vintage playable.



  • I don't like this card. It's even more of a punisher mechanic, in a bad way, than Athreos, God of Passage. She had the same ability, but it triggered when creatures died instead of artifacts. At least with Aethros, you had choices that were more tactically similar: do I take 3 damage, or let them replay a creature that will damage me when it attacks? With this guy, you're giving the opponent a choice between damage and some other utility, like mana from a lotus.

    Since we know the opponent won't ever choose the option that's best for you, I feel like all these punisher cards need to get measured by the tactical difference between the options. That puts this card in a worse place on the "Punisher Mechanic Scale" than other cards that see no play.

    Which brings us to


    TOTALLY OFFICIAL RANKING OF PUNISHER CARDS
    Ranked by Tactical Utility Rank Difference (T.U.R.D.) scale

    Vexing Devil
    1 TURD
    In the kind of decks that play this, the choice between 4 damage now or 4+ damage starting next turn is very similar, and you are very close to equally happy with each. Ranks quite low on the TURD scale.

    Longhorn Firebeast
    2 TURD
    Presents a wider TURD than Vexing Devil because the creature does not have power equal to the damage payment.

    Athreos, God of Passage
    3 TURD
    This choice is sometimes like Firebeast and sometimes like Vexing Devil and sometimes (with utility creatures) like neither of them. Given the range, I'd say this averages 3 TURD.

    Flaming Gambit
    3 TURD
    This one gets a low TURD ranking because, if your opponent has no creatures, then this card actually doesn't present a choice at all. Probably more like 7 TURD when a creature is on the battlefield, so take the average.

    Barbarian Bully
    4 TURD
    This gets 4 TURD because, in a vacuum, this is a choice between 2 damage or 4 damage. The more blockers or other creature-interactive things going on, the wider the TURD becomes.

    Browbeat
    5 TURD
    Drawing cards or dealing damage are quite different, but I rank this lower on the TURD scale because the kind of decks that run it usually can turn those extra cards into extra burn spells. So, again, you're choosing between a certain 5 damage now or somewhere between 0 - 9 damage next turn.

    Blazing Salvo
    7 TURD
    Lose your dude or lose some life. Very different things with very different effects. At least there's SOME possibility that you're trying to remove a blocker, resulting in your opponent taking damage either way.

    Temporal Extortion
    8 TURD
    I had a hard time with this one, but I think ultimately it presents a pretty wide tactical space for your opponent to choose between. Basically, though, the choice gets easier as the game goes on, when paying half life matters less. Either the opponent thinks you can win on the next swing or they do not.

    Breaking Point
    8 TURD
    Kill all dudes unless someone pays some life. This one does not even allow you the corner case of punching through a blocker. Quite a bit of TURD here.

    Dash Hopes // Molten Influence
    9 TURD
    5 life or a spell? Both of these things are not like the other.

    Skullscorch // Tyrranize
    9 TURD
    Unlike Browbeat, which also offers a choice of CA or burn, this one does not allow you to guarantee those extra cards might just equate to more burn anyway. Easy choice for your opponent, particularly given the mediocre level of damage involved. Tyrranize also suffers from being silly expensive, meaning by the time you cast it, your opponent may well chuck the 1 card left in their hand and shrug.

    Dwarven Driller // Lava Blister
    9 TURD
    Perhaps the worst offender of them all, the tactical choices offered to your opponent by this card are not only different, but they're almost trival. In the early game, you soak up the 2 damage. In the late game, you sac the land. It's a choice for kindergartners.

    Book Burning
    10 TURD
    There is no deck that wants to win with either damage or cards off the library. These are vastly different resources. This card scores really high on TURD.


    On this scale, I think Pia's Revolt scores about a 8, which is quite bad.



  • Could this have use in an Easter Eggs deck with helm of awakening? Let me combo off, or die trying to stop me?



  • @Brass-Man All true. This does do a lot of other things that Rack doesn't do though. Look at what it does with just a single Pyrite Spellbomb for example. In a deck that can pressure life in addition to this thing... Well, no doubt you now about 8 times more about deck building than me, but I'd rate it as "rogue possible" in something that may or may not involve, Cavern, Magus, Spellbomb, Scab-clan, (Thalia?), and maybe a Salvagers... though that mix tends to want Null... oh well. Interesting card anyways.


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    think it out .... what DOES it do with just a single Pyrite Spellbomb? exactly 3 damage, once, with no other benefit. (dramatically worse than Rift Bolt, nevermind Lightning Bolt). You're making an un-stated assumption that you also have some way to rebuy the Spellbomb if they just take the damage ... maybe you're assuming there's a Salvagers in play? ... But if there was a Salvagers in play, you can already keep popping the Spellbomb to deal damage, with or without Pia's Revolution in play ... the revolution just deals damage slightly faster, but you're still talking 4 mana for every 5 damage you deal ... it's a 3 card combo that costs 20 mana to deal 20 damage ... consider the things you can do in vintage with 2 cards and 4 mana that doesn't lose to graveyard hate.

    Of course I won't deny that the card is rogue possible ... but don't forget that when decks are good we stop calling them rogue.


  • TMD Supporter

    @MaximumCDawg this post wins the internet for today. Thanks!!!



  • It allows fun trix with goblin welder but when welder is online you have already won so it is sort of overkill. I think it can be fun in casual games but i don"t see it in competitive Vintage.


  • TMD Supporter

    Shouldn't have made a thread for this card. It's too bad for vintage.


  • Administrators

    @desolutionist do you actually believe this? or are you just trolling because people responded negatively to other spoiler threads? We can talk about this over PM/facebook if you want to work something out.



  • @Brass-Man I tend to be a pretty unsarcastic person (in my opinion). I find that unsarcasm is in fact, the single hardest tone to render on the internet. So let me start by just saying, when I state that you are a lot better than me at building decks than me, what I really mean is, you are a lot better at building decks than me. I feel like there is at least a chance that was interpreted as sarcastic... didn't mean it to be at all. I consider you a very good magic player. (You might flinch from that, but heck, from where I sit, you are just a very good player.) That is my operative understanding of the state of things here.

    Secondly, I did think it out, and came to the conclusion that this with a Spellbomb makes 5 damage, or rather, adds 3 damage to a Spellbomb. I do understand that the opponent gets to choose. But they lose that ability once they get close enough to dying, firstly. And again, this is a little different than a rift bolt since, it can add 3 more than once, or less than once given the other cards in play, and it can potentially make infinite mana and damage.So...

    3Salvagers, LED, 2Pia, 3 Spellbombs, 2 Engineered Explosives in a deck? How good is it with cards like Inventor's Fair or Academy Ruins? Can it do something in a red stacks deck with welder? Browbeat? I have no idea... but it doesn't feel to me like comparing it to rift bolt is the right thing here... that's just me.

    This much I can promise you - I am absolutely naive enough to be considering these things, nor do I mind reading the random musing thread about the silly dreams of silly cards like this, for the record. All in good fun. Thanks as always for what you do around here.



  • I'm wondering if there's some kind of blue/red build that you could use with Urza's and Mishra's Baubles ... likely not competitive enough but it would be fun to toy around with.



  • @themonadnomad This turns every bauble into a lightning bolt to the opponent? This kinda feels like a Legacy card to me, given that you can have 4 LED's in that format? Am I yet again missing something? Red Blue also makes Academy Ruins much more playable.



  • Am I the only one who remembers the easter eggs deck? Is this not absolutely insane in that?



  • @Serracollector You are not... and you are not wrong.


  • Administrators

    Don't worry, I didn't think you were being sarcasting ... I think you might be misevaluating our relative skill level :D but I didn't think you were being sarcastic.

    I do think you're evaluating this card as working more often than it will in practice - you're saying that it can deal infinite damage, but there's a step missing there. With Spellbomb or Lotus it doesn't deal infinite damage ... it deals 3 damage once, and then you have to find another way to get the card back. If you already have a way to get the card back infinite times, pyrite spellbomb is already a kill, even without this card in play.

    It deals more damage than Rift Bolt if you have multiple different artifacts that hit the graveyard (or the same artifact hitting the graveyard multiple times), which forces your opponent to pay more than once - but the scenario you laid out was explicitly about how good this card is with a spellbomb and nothing else. You need a lot of cards working together to make this better than cards like Rift Bolt that people aren't playing right now ... and I suspect that any deck that can assemble enough cards to make Pia's Revolt good would have an easier time assembling Bomberman, Vault/Key, Painter/Grindstone, or Tinker/Time Walk.

    Don't forget that Auriok Salvagers + Lotus + Spellbomb is already a kill. Any 2 of those cards and Pia's Revolt is not a kill (Auriok Salvagers+Lotus+Pia's Revolt is just infinite mana and nothing to do with it, Salvagers+Spellbomb+Revolt is just saving you a few mana on the kill you already have, Lotus/Spellbomb/Revolt is just a burn spell) This is literally what the phrase "win more" was designed for.

    There might be a way to use this card, but I'm pretty sure combining it with Salvagers is a dead end



  • @Serracollector I don't understand why this card is good there. The opponent will eat bolts as long as they need to, and you won't be able to start going off until they cannot afford to do that anymore. It's like you take Empty the Vaults or Second Sunrise or whatever, and add a clause that says: "You can only cast this spell if your opponent is at 3 or less life." How is that useful for eggs?


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