B&R Update



  • So what do we think might happen in the near future regarding the banned and restricted list? Would love to hear everyone's thoughts (or wishes).



  • Unrestrict everything, let the wild things out!


  • TMD Supporter

    So there has been an outcry towards shops from sources like the VSL. I don't think shops is the issue.( truly unbiased opinion ) I think the issue stems from more of shops natural prey is being played. We have storm decks showing up. Decks that are cutting lands. Cheating mana sources for other cards. When these decks do that they inherently become weaker to shops. Thus making shops appear to be the best deck. And I for one don't believe that and it's all I play.

    I think a step in the right direction is to force blue decks to be less greedy, to make them stop targeting themselves so much. To do this I believe we re-restrict gush. This will force blue decks to play more lands and thus become less soft to shops. This will also force them to diversify more just as shops did when chalice got hit.

    I think this could lead to a more healthy meta game.



  • Nooooooo not Gush :(


  • TMD Supporter

    I think the "restrict gush" crowd has merit, I just worry that making restrictions based on trying to craft a metagame, instead of because of power or degeneracy is a slippery slope.


  • TMD Supporter

    You can't currently build a deck that beats more than 3/4 of the top decks. This is healthy and normal.


  • TMD Supporter

    @cutlex I don't disagree with you. I'd be happy to see nothing get hit.


  • TMD Supporter

    My comment was more towards if WOTC wants to restrict something then gush should be it.



  • No changes at present would be the best, I think.



  • Personally, I don't think anything is going to happen for the April 4th update.

    As much as gets thrown around about Shops needing restricted, the format seems to have a nice split between combo, aggro, and combo.

    I agree with Lodestone, the tendency of blue decks right now is to get greedy and that makes Shops a better deck choice. I'm not sure that blue should be 'forced' to be less greedy, but they should see the need to adapt.


  • TMD Supporter

    We're getting to the point where Workshop decks are over 30% of the decks played on MTGO, which like it or not is going to be what Wizards uses to datamine for their justifications for restricting a card.

    I also don't buy the whole "There's ten different types of workshops. Blue decks take over 50% of the meta!" argument. ALL Workshop decks, while potentially having a slightly different approach, still function on the exact same principle: Cut off the opponent's ability to use their mana and then find something to kill them with while they're no longer playing the game.

    I think the most restrictable card in the Workshop deck is the card MISHRA'S WORKSHOP.

    The deck would function completely fine with Ancient Tombs + City of Traitors. Restricting anything else from Workshops basically does nothing as everything is very redundant. However, Turn 1 Spheres/Thorns/Revokers/Chalice, and even Trinisphere/other 3CC cards would still be doable. Restricting Workshop would just greatly reduce the Turn 1 2x Sphere or Turn 1 Golem plays.

    I am not saying the card needs to be Restricted, but I think it's the most restrictable card out of the deck.



  • @Soly But if 30% of decks on MTGO are going to be Workshops decks, can't people just build decks to beat those? That'd be the sign of a healthy meta, being able to shift without requiring a B&R update.


  • TMD Supporter

    Restricting Mishra's Workshop puts the current artifact decks in the realm of Goblins and Enchantress. The only reason one would argue for this restriction is if they want to nuke the archetype from orbit.

    If the decks are making up this portion of the metagame, where are the delvers? Or ancient grudges? Where the hell did Dack Fayden go? Letting shops win events because it is disrespected is not a problem inherent to the format, but the players.



  • @cutlex said:

    Restricting Mishra's Workshop puts the current artifact decks in the realm of Goblins and Enchantress. The only reason one would argue for this restriction is if they want to nuke the archetype from orbit.

    If the decks are making up this portion of the metagame, where are the delvers? Or ancient grudges? Where the hell did Dack Fayden go? Letting shops win events because it is disrespected is not a problem inherent to the format, but the players.

    Agreed completely. People are stubborn and just don't adapt. You could see some signs even towards the end of VSL, if WOTC is utilizing them as a bandwidth for banning, because we saw a small surge in landstill decks, that (purportedly) are really good against shops. People just don't adapt at all



  • @cutlex said:

    If the decks are making up this portion of the metagame, where are the delvers? Or ancient grudges? Where the hell did Dack Fayden go? Letting shops win events because it is disrespected is not a problem inherent to the format, but the players.

    Delvers and Dacks are sadly pretty awful against the Ravager lists, so it's kind of a toss-up for which type you play against.

    But otherwise, completely agree. Blue decks got greedier when Chalice was restricted, and haven't yet calmed down to deal with the artifact threat.

    More Oath might help.


  • TMD Supporter

    I think a card that really shines in the Ravager/Hangarback/equipment vs. blue matchup is Hurkyl's Recall. It's a shame that the 'big blue' combo control decks seem so down and out lately, even after the unrestriction of Thirst.



  • I don't think there will be any changes in the upcoming B&R list. I have advocated for a restriction of LSG in the past and would continue to do so. But I'm happy with the list as is right now. I'd be happier w/ lsg added. But doesn't change the fact that I'm happy with it right now. In fact I'd like to see a few other cards come off the list. Hopefully there's a good possibility of that happening.



  • MtGO data is corrupt. The decks are too often NetDecked poorly and played even worse. Competent players choosing Shop to punish that is fine with me.

    Workshops are fine and healthy in paper. They are winning some and losing some. Nothing has them over performing as an archetype as far as I know in paper events.

    My preference is:

    1. Nothing.
    2. Gush is Restricted.
    3. Mental Misstep is Restricted.
    4. Gush and Mental Misstep are Restricted.


  • @Khahan said:

    I don't think there will be any changes in the upcoming B&R list. I have advocated for a restriction of LSG in the past and would continue to do so. But I'm happy with the list as is right now. I'd be happier w/ lsg added. But doesn't change the fact that I'm happy with it right now. In fact I'd like to see a few other cards come off the list. Hopefully there's a good possibility of that happening.

    I wonder if Demonic Consultation would be any good if it were unrestricted. Would it break anything, or would anyone even care?



  • @Samoht You leave Misstep alone.



  • @Gumgod said:

    @Khahan said:

    I don't think there will be any changes in the upcoming B&R list. I have advocated for a restriction of LSG in the past and would continue to do so. But I'm happy with the list as is right now. I'd be happier w/ lsg added. But doesn't change the fact that I'm happy with it right now. In fact I'd like to see a few other cards come off the list. Hopefully there's a good possibility of that happening.

    I wonder if Demonic Consultation would be any good if it were unrestricted. Would it break anything, or would anyone even care?

    I think combo would explode if this were the case. As a 1-of, its not reliable enough for combo. But as a 4-of, imagine just needing that 1 more piece and having 4 chances to put it in your hand and end the game at 1CC. At least in theory.


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