JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL



  • fun fact: all the cards banned in Standard have won Vintage tournaments.



  • @wappla And the wons banned in Modern.



  • It took a while but I got over Mana Drain. It was hard, I mean the site is named after it for a reason. But I can't really imagine going back to any format where the dominant strategic umbrella is draw-go-combo.

    Gush should be safe, it's basically what allows for grindy value plays to be realizable in Vintage. I don't really get hung up about Mentor as I think it has tactical weaknesses to exploit, but it is also the least interesting card that appears alongside Gush. That's not really grounds enough for restriction, but I wouldn't be opposed. To paraphrase one of my favourite podcasters (Mike Flores) - it's more interesting when you make plays that are part of a process, rather than just putting a period at the end of a sentence.

    I don't really know what Gitaxian Probe is enabling that is problematic.



  • @ribby said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    It took a while but I got over Mana Drain. It was hard, I mean the site is named after it for a reason. But I can't really imagine going back to any format where the dominant strategic umbrella is draw-go-combo.

    Gush should be safe, it's basically what allows for grindy value plays to be realizable in Vintage. I don't really get hung up about Mentor as I think it has tactical weaknesses to exploit, but it is also the least interesting card that appears alongside Gush. That's not really grounds enough for restriction, but I wouldn't be opposed. To paraphrase one of my favourite podcasters (Mike Flores) - it's more interesting when you make plays that are part of a process, rather than just putting a period at the end of a sentence.

    I don't really know what Gitaxian Probe is enabling that is problematic.

    Can we be friends, really?



  • Git probe needs restricted. Maybe derpstep, but I can handle derp and gush. Git probe tho feels extremely "cheaty" giving you masses of info and a free draw. One of the things that seperates the great players from the rest is playing correctly while not knowing what your opponent has. Knowing cards, lists, play styles, and tells from opponent are all very key elements to the game. Git Probe throws all that out the window.



  • @wappla Dude they banned a slightly improved Man-o-War... Like Wtf?



  • @Serracollector What deck is Git probe making better exactly? What deck is it a can't cut in? Its a good card, but lets not get carried away. It gets destroyed by Thorn effects, and the life loss can be non-negligible.



  • It allows mentor/PO/Storm decks to know immediatley whether its safe to go off or not, with practically no drawback. Knowing whether you should cast spell X or Y turn one should be part of the guess work, not pay 2 life draw a card and know what your opponent has. Thats far too much information. Git probe is fine if we restrict Gush, Mentor, PO, and Dark Petition. I would rather restrict 1 card rather than a plethora tho.



  • @Serracollector I don't think it does anything to curtail the insanity of Mentor, and the mana generating engines (PO+Gush). You are restricting one of the weakest cards in the deck just to restrict something.



  • Git Probe might be one of the weakest cards in the deck, but that's saying a lot. The card is completely fool proof. If you draw it in your opener there is a 100% chance that the right thing to do is cast it. It's a free roll for the cost of what amounts to nothing and the information you get removes all skill from the game. "Herp derp, no Force? Oh that sucks for you, game over. ". Or, "oh, you got 2x Force and a bunch of action, guess I should hold off for a few turns and find my Flusterstorm first." That's not what Magic should be about. Probe is the least skill demanding card ever printed. Yes, ever printed.



  • Post above, SPOT ON. It isn't about the power level of the card as far as "doing" broken things. Its the information gained with no draw back allowing players to know they dont have to play around anything. Wizards said it perfectly in thier reasoning for banning it in modern, except in Vintage its even more absurd. A big part of magic is leaving that XX mana untapped to make the opponent think you got an answer. Bluff or not, Git Probe just completly nullifies that thinkn mans part of the game.



  • @vaughnbros Reflector Mage is indeed a hilarious banning. It's also emblematic. They have pushed creatures overall so hard in recent years that a gold three-drop with an improved Man-o'-War effect is the 2016 version of Mana Drain.



  • @enderfall Its goes right along the Derpstep, 2W win the game, and the other low skill cards in the Mentor Gush. Probe makes decision making easier, but if it were so good people would actually misstep it. I'll reiterate that restricting changes nothing in terms of decks. Maybe it makes playing the game slightly harder... not something that I honestly really care about. The game is plenty hard already.



  • @vaughnbros I'm nobody when it comes to having a track record, but if it's turn 1, I Misstep the crap out of Probe. Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel like it's almost a losing battle after that, especially if I have nothing really going on.





  • @wappla said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    fun fact: all the cards banned in Standard have won Vintage tournaments.

    I'm sort of happy to see those cards banned for selfish reasons as it allows me to obtain them for far less. I suspect they'd have plummeted post rotation as well, but the fire sale prices should be pretty sweet.

    On the other hand this is a sign that Standard is doing very poorly. I don't play the format, and I'm sure most of the folks on this board don't either, but it is very important to the health of the game. Hopefully things get better soon, as the WotC brass is obviously very concerned.



  • What are the formats standard and modern?



  • I'm strongly in the camp of restricting Gitaxian Probe and Preordain and Gush. Restricting Gush alone will actually make mentor MORE of a problem, as people get away from playing low land counts and partial moxen, and move toward full artifact mana and play cards like Thirst for Knowledge or Paradoxical Outcome, and as such give themselves a much better Eldrazi/Workshop Match.

    I have said for awhile that perfect knowledge of Gitaxian Probe is an issue. For years, I've played combo decks with Duress as my only disruption (In GWSx for example), and I would laugh at the double Force of Will + Mana Drain hands. A good player, given perfect knowledge, can play around your hand more often than not, and I showed this multiple times, including when I top 8ed the ICBM Power Nine tournament with GWSx and when I top 8ed Champs with Drain Tendrils.

    Gitaxian Probe, while not stripping a card out of your hand, also reads "Create a 1/1 Monk Token. All Monks you control get +1/+1 until end of turn", ON TOP of being FREE, letting you map your plays perfectly (or near-perfectly if your Opponent has a draw spell and/or Top), replacing itself, AND being blue! The card is a Gitaxian Problem.

    Preordain should definitely go on the list as well, because it's a crime to me that Preordain is not restricted when Ponder is restricted; and without Gush being restricted, there is no way Ponder comes off. And even if Ponder comes off and Gush goes on, without any of the other changes I've mentioned, nobody will want to play that format either as the 4 Ponder 4 Probe 4 Preordain find Time Vault/Key by turn 3 every game decks will not be enjoyable or skill-testing to play against.

    Keep in mind, while I still somewhat like playing Vintage, I don't enjoy playing the same exact versions of decks 3+ times in a tournament; I also don't enjoy the fact that when my opponent can either just draw free cards and/or get perfect information at any time, it really closes the gap between top level play skill (which I'd argue I have) and the average/below average playskill of many vintage players, since the power-level of the cards significantly decreases the amount of time you have to react to your opponents good draws; the ability to make smart plays, plan your turns, and come back from a deficit with these cards is so much smaller than it used to be. I remember a couple cases at Eternal Weekend where during the game, I was even telling my opponent how to play their deck correctly, because it just didn't matter because they had turn 1Mana Crypt, Land, Mentor, Probe, Preordain, and Force of Willed my first spell, then turned on Gush into Flusterstorm turn 2 and I just died.
    That example doesn't really outline the playskill point (which is more my opinion that more powerful cards give monkeys a better ability to win magic games) but definitely outlines the ability for these cards to just close out games way too quickly.



  • @vaughnbros "what deck is Git Probe making Better exactly?"

    Every deck that plays it.

    Brian Demars once said of Jace, the Mind Sculptor "People will dismiss this card in Vintage, and then everyone will run 1, and then I'll run 2, then everyone will run 2, and then I'll run 3, and then eventually, everyone will run 4". (and for awhile, a variety of decks did run 3 or 4!)

    I feel Gitaxian Probe, while clearly not on the same level as Jace (though close, since Casting Cost disparity gives leeway to ability), Gitaxian Probe is a card people really SHOULD just play 4 of.

    I'll be getting back on MTGO shortly, and every deck I play will have a bare minimum of 3 Gitaxian Probe, and most likely 4.



  • @Soly said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    @vaughnbros "what deck is Git Probe making Better exactly

    I feel Gitaxian Probe, while clearly not on the same level as Jace (though close, since Casting Cost disparity gives leeway to ability), Gitaxian Probe is a card people really SHOULD just play 4 of.

    I too have fundamental problems with this card. I even tested it in shops when we were playing less spheres and four cotv.

    It just takes away a great element of magic (imperfect information) for little sacrifice.

    A game of Magic is rarely better when one of the players probes.


 

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