JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL





  • @wappla said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    fun fact: all the cards banned in Standard have won Vintage tournaments.

    I'm sort of happy to see those cards banned for selfish reasons as it allows me to obtain them for far less. I suspect they'd have plummeted post rotation as well, but the fire sale prices should be pretty sweet.

    On the other hand this is a sign that Standard is doing very poorly. I don't play the format, and I'm sure most of the folks on this board don't either, but it is very important to the health of the game. Hopefully things get better soon, as the WotC brass is obviously very concerned.



  • What are the formats standard and modern?



  • I'm strongly in the camp of restricting Gitaxian Probe and Preordain and Gush. Restricting Gush alone will actually make mentor MORE of a problem, as people get away from playing low land counts and partial moxen, and move toward full artifact mana and play cards like Thirst for Knowledge or Paradoxical Outcome, and as such give themselves a much better Eldrazi/Workshop Match.

    I have said for awhile that perfect knowledge of Gitaxian Probe is an issue. For years, I've played combo decks with Duress as my only disruption (In GWSx for example), and I would laugh at the double Force of Will + Mana Drain hands. A good player, given perfect knowledge, can play around your hand more often than not, and I showed this multiple times, including when I top 8ed the ICBM Power Nine tournament with GWSx and when I top 8ed Champs with Drain Tendrils.

    Gitaxian Probe, while not stripping a card out of your hand, also reads "Create a 1/1 Monk Token. All Monks you control get +1/+1 until end of turn", ON TOP of being FREE, letting you map your plays perfectly (or near-perfectly if your Opponent has a draw spell and/or Top), replacing itself, AND being blue! The card is a Gitaxian Problem.

    Preordain should definitely go on the list as well, because it's a crime to me that Preordain is not restricted when Ponder is restricted; and without Gush being restricted, there is no way Ponder comes off. And even if Ponder comes off and Gush goes on, without any of the other changes I've mentioned, nobody will want to play that format either as the 4 Ponder 4 Probe 4 Preordain find Time Vault/Key by turn 3 every game decks will not be enjoyable or skill-testing to play against.

    Keep in mind, while I still somewhat like playing Vintage, I don't enjoy playing the same exact versions of decks 3+ times in a tournament; I also don't enjoy the fact that when my opponent can either just draw free cards and/or get perfect information at any time, it really closes the gap between top level play skill (which I'd argue I have) and the average/below average playskill of many vintage players, since the power-level of the cards significantly decreases the amount of time you have to react to your opponents good draws; the ability to make smart plays, plan your turns, and come back from a deficit with these cards is so much smaller than it used to be. I remember a couple cases at Eternal Weekend where during the game, I was even telling my opponent how to play their deck correctly, because it just didn't matter because they had turn 1Mana Crypt, Land, Mentor, Probe, Preordain, and Force of Willed my first spell, then turned on Gush into Flusterstorm turn 2 and I just died.
    That example doesn't really outline the playskill point (which is more my opinion that more powerful cards give monkeys a better ability to win magic games) but definitely outlines the ability for these cards to just close out games way too quickly.



  • @vaughnbros "what deck is Git Probe making Better exactly?"

    Every deck that plays it.

    Brian Demars once said of Jace, the Mind Sculptor "People will dismiss this card in Vintage, and then everyone will run 1, and then I'll run 2, then everyone will run 2, and then I'll run 3, and then eventually, everyone will run 4". (and for awhile, a variety of decks did run 3 or 4!)

    I feel Gitaxian Probe, while clearly not on the same level as Jace (though close, since Casting Cost disparity gives leeway to ability), Gitaxian Probe is a card people really SHOULD just play 4 of.

    I'll be getting back on MTGO shortly, and every deck I play will have a bare minimum of 3 Gitaxian Probe, and most likely 4.



  • @Soly said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    @vaughnbros "what deck is Git Probe making Better exactly

    I feel Gitaxian Probe, while clearly not on the same level as Jace (though close, since Casting Cost disparity gives leeway to ability), Gitaxian Probe is a card people really SHOULD just play 4 of.

    I too have fundamental problems with this card. I even tested it in shops when we were playing less spheres and four cotv.

    It just takes away a great element of magic (imperfect information) for little sacrifice.

    A game of Magic is rarely better when one of the players probes.



  • The camp that's still mad about LSG/CotV; why don't you just combine your arguments and simplify your text walls.

    Really what you want is zero restricted cards in Workshops/Eldrazi, additionally every blue instant/sorcery that is a card advantage or quality spell needs to be restricted. Except for the aforementioned that rely on fast mana to be competitive, because having games devolve into who drew the most fast mana is oh so much more healthy and enjoyable than having to actually play Magic with the person sitting across from you.

    Sorry, but we had to sit through this from 2001-2007 then had to sit through six years of Martello being so good the 75 literally didn't change over the course of that time span. You guys are straight delusional.

    My theory, 99% of you have no clue how to play MTG - thus need this format to devolve into base fundamentals that pander to your desire for validation and ego stroking.



  • @Soly Git probe is played in like half of the decks of the format though. Thorn decks are the only ones that cant to run it really. Sure you can restrict it, but that changes almost nothing.



  • All: Probe in Modern enables much different play patterns than Probe in Vintage.

    Same with Gush. It would be ridiculously busted in other formats, and just kicked off storm or storm-like patterns the last two times it was legal in Vintage, where it went to 11 so quickly. Somehow, today, the worst thing you can really do is Mentor, but the average thing you can do is meaningfully engage in combat and other small-ball value-driven resource fights on multiple axes. Kind of awesome!!!



  • @socialite said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    desire for validation and ego stroking.

    Isn't this essentially all you do on the internet? Besides following me around.



  • @nedleeds said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    @socialite said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    desire for validation and ego stroking.

    Isn't this essentially all you do on the internet? Besides following me around.

    I was a registered member on every forum you frequent before you were.

    Additionally, making fun of you Sean isn't validating nor a stroke of my ego. It was never anything serious until you took it to the next level.

    Would love to hash things out with you via PM but if you're just going to keep posting the same whining and flawed arguments over and over then I'm going to continue to poke holes in it.



  • @vaughnbros I think it would need to be restricted on top of Gush. I'm not in the camp that Mentor is a problem, but I AM in the camp of "Mentor becomes a bigger problem if only Gush gets restricted".



  • @Soly what you just wrote is basically the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Gush can easily encourage boring and degenerate play patterns in the abstract, so it's definitely something to watch for. But in today's specific environment the only viable Gush-driven play pattern that is genuinely uninteresting is Mentor-as-proxy-for-Tendrils/Tinker. It's tough to get around - the tactical weaknesses of Mentor are offset by the tactical strengths of white control cards. Wouldn't mind restriction of Mentor just because it's frankly a little boring, but this opinion isn't super strong.

    The other effects of Gush today are awesome.

    • Games that don't end OR effectively end before turn 3
    • Cards that are one thing some of the time and something else other times (think Lightning Bolt, or JVP, or better yet Bolt and JVP in the same deck)
    • Explicitly bringing the necessary skill of considering mana efficiency and mana curve out of good deck designers
    • Meaningful combat in some matchups. This includes blocking and removal, but also tempo-related concepts like racing and how it affects the sequencing of plays
    • Less off-color Moxen and more attention to color balance in manabases.
    • Multi-purpose lands. This feeds back into the "things that are two different things" theme - Gush decks are running Strip Mines etc. to make sure they have big enough manabases but can do something with excess land. It would be better still if the format shifted to a place where Gush decks had to consider sometimes running creature-lands - or if non-Gush decks got edge from being able to more easily run them.

    This needs to go even further. Vintage would be better, for instance, if value 2-for-1s like Searing Blaze were viable. Then players could squeeze more out of their decks, and gameplay gets more interesting and varied. This is more likely with Gush than without: to use my example, Searing Blaze is only a 2-for-1 if damage to the face and damage to small creatures are actually valued effects.

    Basically, circa-2006 Vintage really only made you care about one thing (accumulate enough stuff to resolve Yawg Will) and 2016/17 Vintage makes you care about multiple things. Which is awesome.

    I suspect you won't agree with any of this, but you want Vintage Magic to be chess and I prefer that Vintage Magic be Magic.

    Also: I'm sure you're very skilled, but maybe you're overestimating your own skill when you talk about how you're not winning as often now?



  • @ribby Your experience is much different than mine. Almost every game I've played has effectively ended on or before turn 3.

    Turn 1: Probe + preordain/ancestral/etc. Mistep their first spell.
    turn 2: Force of will a spell, play a mentor or a couple more cantrips to sculpt a hand.
    Turn 3: Play Gush, play Dack Fayden/Mentor.

    If you don't have significant pressure of your own, the card Advantage/Quality Filtering they have here just ends the game. The rest is just going through the motions.



  • @ribby said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    @Soly what you just wrote is basically the complete opposite of what is actually happening. Gush can easily encourage boring and degenerate play patterns in the abstract, so it's definitely something to watch for. But in today's specific environment the only viable Gush-driven play pattern that is genuinely uninteresting is Mentor-as-proxy-for-Tendrils/Tinker. It's tough to get around - the tactical weaknesses of Mentor are offset by the tactical strengths of white control cards. Wouldn't mind restriction of Mentor just because it's frankly a little boring, but this opinion isn't super strong.

    The other effects of Gush today are awesome.

    • Games that don't end OR effectively end before turn 3
    • Cards that are one thing some of the time and something else other times (think Lightning Bolt, or JVP, or better yet Bolt and JVP in the same deck)
    • Explicitly bringing the necessary skill of considering mana efficiency and mana curve out of good deck designers
    • Meaningful combat in some matchups. This includes blocking and removal, but also tempo-related concepts like racing and how it affects the sequencing of plays
    • Less off-color Moxen and more attention to color balance in manabases.
    • Multi-purpose lands. This feeds back into the "things that are two different things" theme - Gush decks are running Strip Mines etc. to make sure they have big enough manabases but can do something with excess land. It would be better still if the format shifted to a place where Gush decks had to consider sometimes running creature-lands - or if non-Gush decks got edge from being able to more easily run them.

    This needs to go even further. Vintage would be better, for instance, if value 2-for-1s like Searing Blaze were viable. Then players could squeeze more out of their decks, and gameplay gets more interesting and varied. This is more likely with Gush than without: to use my example, Searing Blaze is only a 2-for-1 if damage to the face and damage to small creatures are actually valued effects.

    Basically, circa-2006 Vintage really only made you care about one thing (accumulate enough stuff to resolve Yawg Will) and 2016/17 Vintage makes you care about multiple things. Which is awesome.

    I suspect you won't agree with any of this, but you want Vintage Magic to be chess and I prefer that Vintage Magic be Magic.

    Also: I'm sure you're very skilled, but maybe you're overestimating your own skill when you talk about how you're not winning as often now?

    Hear, hear! Well said Ribby.



  • @ribby said in [JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL]

    Also: I'm sure you're very skilled, but maybe you're overestimating your own skill when you talk about how you're not winning as often now?

    I like the passive-aggressive attack on me here. I play magic now maybe 3 times a year, and still ended up with 1 bye at Eternal Weekend by brutalizing people with a Paradoxical Outcome Deck that was drastically different than anyone else's on the weekend. Also, people who watched me play at Eternal Weekend's preliminary event can attest to my ability to play this game. Sometimes you make the right decisions, and they just don't pan out. (Such as my keeping a hand against a known shops opponent that could play through anything but Trinisphere when he had mulled to 6 on the play, but he had it).

    Being able to make see the right decisions is a huge factor in this game, but without perfect information, some of the time you can make the right decision, and it ends up being wrong due; the Odds aren't always absolute, sometimes you're favored and still lose due to variance. I chalk this up to 'Vintage Happens'.

    Skill in this game doesn't always equate to winning; the real skill is having the ability to play your cards in a way that cuts off your opponents chances to get lucky -OR- play well enough to get themselves into the game. Unfortunately, cards like Gush, Preordain, and Gitaxian Probe give your opponent many more chances to get ahead of you, even if they make mistakes that in theory should bury them:

    Examples of this include:
    My opponent, on the play, plays Mox Sapphire and Mox Ruby, a Tundra, and Plays Monastery Mentor. I Gitaxian Probe him, and he has Force of Will and 2 Fetchlands and a Dual in hand. I play Sol Ring and Voltaic Key, and set up a turn where I can Paradoxical Outcome for at least 4 on my following turn with Force of Will backup. He draws, plays a Dual, floats 2, plays Gush, plays Probe, Plays Preordain, attacks me for 5 (14 due to fetchland), and passes with Sapphire and Ruby up. On my turn, I go to Paradox, and he has the blue card for Force of Will. Okay, cool, I can force of will back! He should have mulliganed his Mentor + nothing hand, and now I am going to make him pay for it. But oh, his random topdeck into 6 cards means he also found the fucking Flusterstorm. Now I'm stairing down a Mentor, 5 tokens, and an empty hand. On his turn? He draws a Probe and I die.

    Another example: I probe my opponent on either my turn 2 or 3, and then my opponent Probes me on his following turn. We both know each other's entire hand, minus the 1 card he probed into (because he drew the probe) He then casts Ancestral. I misstep it with the mistep he knows I have. So he forces, removing a blue card. So I let the force resolve, then mistep the Ancestral AGAIN, and he pyroblasts. He has 1 card in hand (Gush). He knows I have it, so I Mindbreak Trap. Cool donkey, you're left with Gush in hand and stone-nothing, and I have a Paradox in my hand that draws me 4 with my top trigger adding a 5th. Good luck. He gushes, and hits fucking Force + Blue card. Okay, I'm still in this game.
    He draws, plays a land, plays preordain, and passes. I go for the Paradox: He has Flusterstorm. I die shortly later when he finds Dig into Cruise + Mentor.

    Let me state that I am fine with variance playing a part in the game. Any game where the best player always wins would be boring for everyone... but I hate more than anything when my opponent is clearly a braindead Turtle, but it doesn't matter because they drew Gitaxian Probe so they knew my hand, then they drew their 2nd Gush and Resolved Dack, then sat there with their thumb up their ass because they're just burying me anyway because I didn't happen to draw those cards. It may just be that I don't just follow the lemmings and play Gush decks often anymore myself. Who knows.



  • So really you're just upset with variance (intrinsic to the game since inception) despite saying you're really not bothered by it. You could substitute any card for your examples Michael and it wouldn't change your obvious frustration.

    No one likes losing but this is Type 1 and every dog has his day regardless of percieved "skill".



  • @Soly said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:

    @ribby said in [JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL]

    Also: I'm sure you're very skilled, but maybe you're overestimating your own skill when you talk about how you're not winning as often now?

    I like the passive-aggressive attack on me here. I play magic now maybe 3 times a year, and still ended up with 1 bye at Eternal Weekend by brutalizing people with a Paradoxical Outcome Deck that was drastically different than anyone else's on the weekend. Also, people who watched me play at Eternal Weekend's preliminary event can attest to my ability to play this game. Sometimes you make the right decisions, and they just don't pan out. (Such as my keeping a hand against a known shops opponent that could play through anything but Trinisphere when he had mulled to 6 on the play, but he had it).

    Being able to make see the right decisions is a huge factor in this game, but without perfect information, some of the time you can make the right decision, and it ends up being wrong due; the Odds aren't always absolute, sometimes you're favored and still lose due to variance. I chalk this up to 'Vintage Happens'.

    Skill in this game doesn't always equate to winning; the real skill is having the ability to play your cards in a way that cuts off your opponents chances to get lucky -OR- play well enough to get themselves into the game. Unfortunately, cards like Gush, Preordain, and Gitaxian Probe give your opponent many more chances to get ahead of you, even if they make mistakes that in theory should bury them:

    Examples of this include:
    My opponent, on the play, plays Mox Sapphire and Mox Ruby, a Tundra, and Plays Monastery Mentor. I Gitaxian Probe him, and he has Force of Will and 2 Fetchlands and a Dual in hand. I play Sol Ring and Voltaic Key, and set up a turn where I can Paradoxical Outcome for at least 4 on my following turn with Force of Will backup. He draws, plays a Dual, floats 2, plays Gush, plays Probe, Plays Preordain, attacks me for 5 (14 due to fetchland), and passes with Sapphire and Ruby up. On my turn, I go to Paradox, and he has the blue card for Force of Will. Okay, cool, I can force of will back! He should have mulliganed his Mentor + nothing hand, and now I am going to make him pay for it. But oh, his random topdeck into 6 cards means he also found the fucking Flusterstorm. Now I'm stairing down a Mentor, 5 tokens, and an empty hand. On his turn? He draws a Probe and I die.

    Another example: I probe my opponent on either my turn 2 or 3, and then my opponent Probes me on his following turn. We both know each other's entire hand, minus the 1 card he probed into (because he drew the probe) He then casts Ancestral. I misstep it with the mistep he knows I have. So he forces, removing a blue card. So I let the force resolve, then mistep the Ancestral AGAIN, and he pyroblasts. He has 1 card in hand (Gush). He knows I have it, so I Mindbreak Trap. Cool donkey, you're left with Gush in hand and stone-nothing, and I have a Paradox in my hand that draws me 4 with my top trigger adding a 5th. Good luck. He gushes, and hits fucking Force + Blue card. Okay, I'm still in this game.
    He draws, plays a land, plays preordain, and passes. I go for the Paradox: He has Flusterstorm. I die shortly later when he finds Dig into Cruise + Mentor.

    Let me state that I am fine with variance playing a part in the game. Any game where the best player always wins would be boring for everyone... but I hate more than anything when my opponent is clearly a braindead Turtle, but it doesn't matter because they drew Gitaxian Probe so they knew my hand, then they drew their 2nd Gush and Resolved Dack, then sat there with their thumb up their ass because they're just burying me anyway because I didn't happen to draw those cards. It may just be that I don't just follow the lemmings and play Gush decks often anymore myself. Who knows.

    Would those games have played out any differently if neither of you have had Probe?



  • @Griselbrother If neither of us had Probe AND Gush, yes they would. Not having perfect knowledge will definitely slow down some games in general.



  • Sometimes people who don't have a ton of experience in particular meta (paper or online,) will perceive a high-variance game (or turn) as luck or "braindead" playstyle.

    A large part of understanding and becoming good at vintage is understanding the nuances of the format, and becoming accustomed to the back-and-forth nature of high variance.

    An opponent might sometimes seem like they don't know what they're doing, when in fact they have an acute awareness of the particular meta and of the deck they are playing against.


 

WAF/WHF

Looks like your connection to The Mana Drain was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.