MTGO Outside Assistance
Having been on the other side of this in a previous P9 challenge, I must admit it was originally somewhat disheartening to watch the replay and discover that I was facing down 2 players, plus a third over Skype.
That said, I know that I personally got a lot out of being able to re-watch that match from my opponent's point of view; to hear the considerations of his lines, see what he had, and especially to hear the debate between different lines. It was a wealth of valuable information that you just cannot get anywhere else. I was able to easily pick out my (very) loose plays, see where I had my windows, and when they closed. I lost the match, but was able to get a heck of a return on that loss.
My two cents: I definitely wouldn't want to see an end to the way that Vintage has been streamed recently -- the community, entertainment and educational value provided is far and away worth more than the occasional feelbads.
Rich and Andy should have to change their MTGO avatars to hydras to clearly represent their true nature as an unstoppable multi-headed monstrosity
Let us know at what point you think getting outside help is immoral enough that you stop giving outside assistance to people through twitch chat, @ajfirecracker
Apparently as of 30 minutes ago you were undecided:
I do not care that my opponent was receiving outside help, but this is almost comical.
@diophan You're joking, right? All of those comments were general comments about the deck, not actual play advice. Like, read your own screenshot
Also those were delayed until after the relevant decisions. I didn't say Strip indicated against Shops until after you played a dual, for example
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I disagree strongly. I would much rather be called out for hypocrisy (see my opening statement in this thread) than dismiss my argument because of my actions. If my actions and my beliefs are in conflict, it is my actions that must change.
@diophan Remember 24 hours ago when he said this? The internet remembers....
As far as I'm concerned, this thread has reached the end of it's usefulness (just like the previous version of the thread). @ajfirecracker If you strongly feel this way, talk to Wizards about establishing a code of conduct for streamers. That would be the most productive use of your time. I'm ignoring this thread now.
@diophan I have to admit, I'm really uncomfortable with you using me, and my stream to go after someone. Not to mention that you picked a horrible picture of me to go along with it.
To be clear, Adam was not the special guest tonight. He was simply a viewer, along with many in my chat. I did not ask for his suggestions, nor did I need them.
@Oestrus's stream is fire and I recommend people tune in. Lesbimagical was also a great guest, and I can only admire their righteous anger at dredge hate in general and white eldrazi in particular.
I just want to make one thing perfectly clear. I was very intentionally not providing useful play advice in that stream. I think @diophan's screenshot is incredibly misleading.
I purposefully did not say Strip Mine indicated against Workshops until after @diophan played a dual land.
I purposefully did not say to play Dark Depths (as the only possible land play in a given turn) until after the streamer passed the turn.
I purposefully did not say that Dakmor Salvage is a Dredge 2 and can't be dredged with 1 card in library until after the streamer was committed to that line.
There was one case where I said to hardcast a Prized Amalgam, thinking the streamer had already come to a decision and was moving on, and the streamer ended up seeing my message and ended up playing the Prized Amalgam. So, if you want to highlight my hypocrisy, that's the only instance that I am aware of.
If you have even the least bit of doubt, I strongly urge you to watch the VOD of that stream. I think you will see that I do not provide advice in general or even in @diophan's specific screenshot. (And the streamer unfortunately ended up going 0-3 bye)
I don't think you understand my point.
You made a general comment that you have to "hardcast stuff or resolve serenity to beat cage" in the middle of game two. Unless you made this comment at the end of the match, you are providing outside assistance, regardless of where your comment was directed. Especially since there was a cage in play for IIRC half an hour of the remaining match time. That advice is useful as long as the game is going on. Just because your advice is general does not mean it is not outside assistance.
You are making up rules as you go along to make your behavior ethical while smearing other people (including Oestrus by the way) for being provided assistance in person or via Skype. Providing less outside help than you could have is not a tenable ethical position.
It would be nice if we could all just agree that streams like Rich's, Oestrus's, and Brassman's benefit the community and part of streaming is communicating in near real time with other people. Your actions certainly imply you see the value of people streaming.
@diophan Read your screenshot again.
pinograham: so how do you beat cage
ajfirecracker: you have to hardcast stuff or resolve serenity to beat cage
The idea that that piece of advice is intended to or in any way did help the streamer is totally laughable
As I have said repeatedly in this thread, I do see the value in streaming. There's no hypocrisy on that front whatsoever. What I object to is real-time assistance of a player, especially expert advice and especially in a major tournament. The idea that I'm a hypocrite for saying you need to either blow up cage or win around it is frankly dishonest. The thing I criticized and the thing I did are simply not the same thing, and it's a lie to say they are.
All you need to say is, "Yes, I wanted help in a competitive event, but it's ok, because it's allowed."
The real meat and potatoes of this thread.
The professional holier than art thou Vintage club taking pot shots to continue the narrative that best suits their infallible egos.
My issue is not streaming. The current MTGO rules actually encourage streaming (like, they literally say "we encourage streaming"). I was streaming the event and I think in general the value of strategic advice from Twitch chat is low enough that we should probably live with it. My concern is that you have players you trust in your living room (or on Skype) talking over plays and giving advice. I think the quality of that advice is much higher and does much more to cut against fairness than access to Twitch chat. I also think the people who want to defend the practice of team play are conflating it with Twitch chat, either on purpose or unintentionally.
@ajfirecracker You are trying to draw a line that doesn't exist. Advice is Advice. If you want to ban outside assistance then that includes Twitch chat.
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