• @JonHammack

    Loam is an interesting inclusion over Crucible, and they fundamentally do the same thing, and adding JvP adds value to the dredge, but I don't think you would cast it more than once (KO'ing 3 lands is usually enough).

    Just to be clear, although you might cast it once for the purposes of destroying your opponents lands, you might very well cast it again just to have lands to discard to Dack Fayden's +1. In this respect, it works like Gush to increase the value of looting as more pure card advantage. I made the changes discussed in the original post because I think this deck is well positioned in the metagame, but I wanted more control elements than traditional BUG decks and after playing decks like Sylvan mentor, who doesn't want to discard lands and draw off Dack? Loam has much more synergy in the deck than crucible, but if all I wanted was land destruction, I wouldn't play loam.

  • I already got Andy's opinion on Dark Confidant, but I am appalled by the lack of Bob in this thread. I've played many games with it in a similar deck, and I would not even think about playing Painful Truths especially in this format where no one plays removal (no, 4 Swords is not "removal").

  • @Water0 said in Leovold_SuperControl:

    I already got Andy's opinion on Dark Confidant, but I am appalled by the lack of Bob in this thread. I've played many games with it in a similar deck, and I would not even think about playing Painful Truths especially in this format where no one plays removal (no, 4 Swords is not "removal").

    Walking Ballista.

  • @socialite Okay, I'll admit that I hadn't played the deck since Aether Revolt, but I'll still stand by Bob vs every other deck especially over casting a 3 mana sorcery vs shops.

  • TMD Supporter

    I mean 4 swords and 3 ways to recur swords isn't nothing. Also all the shops decks are or should be playing 4 walking ballista as @socialite mentioned. Also, keep in mind that many vintage games are compressed in number of turns. The impact of bob is a lot lower if you don't have it in play for 3+ turns as compared to a one time injection of 3+ cards.

    Another important point is that we no longer live in a format where you can expect to get in a ton of damage with a random creature with the effect you want stapled to it. Goblin welder beats are no longer a real win condition, and incidental damage from bob, is much less likely to be in the 6-8 damage range. There are just to many creatures running around now that can block. Mentor tokens make bob look terrible.

    There was a time, even when bob was the de facto choice for many decks for a draw engine, when some folks were playing Night;s Whisper because bob wasn't surviving long enough to get two cards worth of extra value, and there were fewer remove spells and blockers then by a fair margin.

  • @Water0 Enjoy 0-2ing with your Dark Confidants.

    Mentor: 4x Swords to Plowshares
    Workshops: 4x Ballista and ~1 Triskelion
    Oath of druids: <-4x
    Paradoxical Outcome: Sweet, you tapped 1B and passed turn for a do-nothing. You're fucking dead.

  • TMD Supporter

    I know a lot of people claim he's weak in the shops matchup, but I can say from the Walking Ballista side of the table, Leovold can be a pain and creates a lot of problems. In the early game he can hold off the small attackers, while at the same time forcing serious deliberation when wasting/striping. Worst of all, killing him with Ballista is a draw 3. Ouch!

  • @Soly I can do this too.

    Mental Misstep
    Null Rod
    Abrupt Decay (you should literally never, ever lose to Oath of Druids as BUG EVER)
    Null Rod again or you could just not play it until you've picked apart their hand.

  • @garbageaggro I see all of your points here, but the alternative is running a 3 mana sorcery that's more likely going to cost 4 or even 5 when Bob is not taxed by Thorn. Bob ONLY loses to Walking Ballista against shops; Painful Truths loses to their entire deck.

  • Why not just run Baleful Strix? I know its only a single card, but it immediately replaces itself against Removal, also deals with creatures better than Bob does.

  • @Water0 LOL you're assuming we run more than 1, MAYBE 2 decays, AND they're not running Show and Tell right now, or just hardcasting their guys.

    Anyway, I welcome you to play Bug; check my list on MTGO by searching for Soly_TMD; you'll see the difference between my list and the dark confidant lists.. . namely, that there aren't any, cuz they can't win shit right now. And this is coming from a guy who's won over a dozen pieces of power years ago with Confidant Storm.

  • Seems BUG is all over MODO currently. From a Gush-Mentor perspective this is a super hard match-up, kind of like @Soly wrote that you spend so much removal on other things than Leovold that he is pretty much gg if he resolves. Abrupt decay also really bad since it is hard to get Mentor going properly. But even though I suddenly lose most games I like how the metagame is changing again. Just need to figure out what mentor can do to battle this now... ;)

  • Sidenote on Painful Truth: Ive cast it for 5 thanks to lotus and dealthrite against spheres. Desthrite makes the card easy to play, and sometimes you stabalize the board, and a 3 mana Draw 3 is nuts when your opponent only realistically has 4 fows that counter it.

  • I gave this list a try and got totally crushed by mentor...
    The only card they really care is leovold, isn't it?
    Also, by playing painful truth, why don't you want to play all moxen? 17 (including 1 strip 3 wastes) lands + 3 moxen is not much...

  • @CwaM Which list did you try?

    Brassman's list didn't have Jace, the Mind Sculptor, where as I have 3, and I find that they're just additional threats that are bomb. I also played Misdirection, and that card's been gasoline as well.

  • Has anyone tried Glissa, the Traitor in the SB or less likely MD?

    Glissa, the traitor GGB
    First strike, Deathtouch

    Whenever an opponent's creature dies, you may return an artifact from your graveyard to your hand


    The first strike and death touch combination means that it kills thought-knot seer and reality smasher before receiving combat damage and its ability can allow you to recur baleful strix against eldrazi, tormod's crypts against dredge, engineered explosives against mentor, etc.

  • I've been playing Glissa in my BUG leovold deck for a few weeks now. It's great in the two matchups you mentioned. I liked it so much that I've added two trinket mages to find my copies of engineered explosives and nihil spellbomb. I haven't played this iteration in a daily yet but I'm hoping to tonight. Will let you know how it goes.

  • I been testing 4 Grim Flayers in my current iteration. 4/4 Tramplers are really good, ones that let you filter your top cards for dr shaman, delve cards, or to simply dig deeper on a BS/Preordain/Ponder/Sylvan Library has been amazing for me so far.

  • @the_zeeker

    Would you mind sharing your list?


  • @marcb here you go, its been doing well against MUD variants and storm. Mentor Im prolly 50/50, Oath is my worst matchup for obv reasons being a dude deck. I would really, really like to fit in a 2nd tasigur with the Grim Flayers, they have been really really good. I am also tempted, but have no tried yet, to test out Walking Ballista, just to have some mroe artifacts to get Delirium on quicker.

    // 60 Maindeck
    // 5 Artifact
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Lotus Petal

    // 14 Creature
    1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
    4 Grim Flayer
    2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy

    // 1 Enchantment
    1 Sylvan Library

    // 19 Instant
    1 Dig Through Time
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    3 Gush
    4 Force of Will
    3 Mental Misstep
    1 Flusterstorm
    1 Mindbreak Trap
    2 Abrupt Decay
    2 Fatal Push

    // 18 Land
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Underground Sea
    4 Polluted Delta
    3 Misty Rainforest
    3 Tropical Island

    // 3 Sorcery
    1 Treasure Cruise
    1 Time Walk
    1 Demonic Tutor

    // 15 Sideboard
    // 3 Artifact
    SB: 3 Null Rod

    // 4 Enchantment
    SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

    // 8 Instant
    SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
    SB: 1 Mindbreak Trap
    SB: 2 Flusterstorm
    SB: 2 Nature's Claim
    SB: 2 Steel Sabotage

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