If I may indulge in a slightly off topic aside, what I love about this Vintage community, and TMD in particular, is the level of rigor of the debate. I am grateful for the analysis that Steve, Kevin, and Danny, and several others contributed to this particular debate, and many others.

The Vintage metagame is an incredibly complex system, and reasonable human minds, which are inevitably biased to some extent, can disagree as to how best to analyze and distill meaning from the incongruous sets of data, particularly with respect to ill-defined concepts as dominance of a particular archetype, or the appropriateness of restricting a card.

In sum, this thread, stripped of the personal attacks and ruffled feathers, is representative of what I think makes this such a great forum. Keep up the good work gentleman, and keep it clean.

Would it be possible to organize tournament postings by region, similar to the old website? Alternatively, could we create "standardized" region tags, and post links to those standardized tags on the tournament announcement page, so that it is obvious how to screen for tournaments in a particular region (while still allowing tournament announcements to be additionally tagged by city/state/country/etc)?

At this point, there appears to be some attempt to tag by region, but the tags do not appear to be standardized, or at least it isn't clear what the standardized tags are. As a consequence, for example, it took me a while to determine that as of yet there are (unsurprisingly) no tournaments posted as of yet for the "West Coast / Pacific / California / etc." It would be nice if this were easier, especially for new users.

Thanks!

I am bar certified in California, but am not a labor law expert so I don't have much to offer in terms of analysis at this point. Aside from class certification, two substantive legal hurdles plaintiff will have to clear is (1) that judges are in fact "working", and (2) that WOTC is their employer. The WOTC press release speaks to the latter, and makes a good point that at many (though not all) events judges have no relationship with WOTC, but rather with a local store. But the former may be interesting legal question.

In Walling v. Portland Terminal Co., the Supreme Court wrote:

The definition ‘suffer or permit to work’ [in the Fair Labor Standards Act] was obviously not intended to stamp all persons as employees who, without any express or implied compensation agreement, might work for their own advantage on the premises of another. Otherwise, all students would be employees of the school or college they attended, and as such entitled to receive minimum wages. So also, such a construction would sweep under the Act each person who, without promise or expectation of compensation, but solely for his personal purpose or pleasure, worked in activities carried on by other persons either for their pleasure or profit.

330 U.S. 148, 152 (U.S. 1947) (finding that participants in a mandatory training course offered by a railroad for prospective breakmen were not "employees" of the railroad). So clearly there is some wiggle room in the definition of work under the FLSA. Whether judges should be treated as employees may depend on how courts have interpreted the definition of "work" in the FLSA and corresponding California law. Without doing a bunch of research, I can't say much more than that, except that the frame and relative strength of the arguments may get a little clearer once there is briefing on the substantive issues, which could take a while.

The capitalized disclaimer at the bottom of the initial post of @MaximumCDawg is hereby incorporated by reference.

@Fred_Bear & @Smennen

I'm not sure what you are even debating anymore. The data speaks for itself. We can disect it and criticize analytical methodologies ad nauseum, but at some point the head of the pin becomes overcrowded with angels.

Are there plans to add a "Search" function, assuming there isn't already one that I'm missing? Its easy enough to scroll through a couple of days of posts, but that will quickly become impossible if the site takes off as intended.

Thanks, and great work Andy--the site looks great!

I wasn't sure where to put this as it isn't really a strategy question. I am brand new to Vintage on MTGO. I think I've figured out most of the shortcuts and mechanics, but I got stymied using Necropotence.

Setting aside cards was easy enough, but when I got to the discard and cleanup phase after over necroing things fell apart. Different triggers kept popping in the discard and cleanup phases, and weren't automatically stacking, even though I have it set to stack triggers automatically. And I couldn't figure out how to yield to the discard triggers, or even where I was supposed to click to process the triggers. Basically I burned up seemingly infinite time, and at one point accidentally necroed to death under time pressure.

I was also confused why the cards I discarded with necro in play were placed underneath Necropotence. Are these cards not in the exile zone? It also cluttered the board, which was annoying. I don't suppose there's a way to turn this feature off?

Would anyone be kind enough to provide a remedial step-by-step explanation of how to use necro efficiently on MTGO, and what if any shortcuts I can set to make things go quickly?

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Note, I am only asking about MTGO mechanics; I have been playing Necropotence for nearly two decade without incident in paper magic.

I've been researching prices and platform over the last few months, as I am also on the threshold of buying into Vintage MTGO.

I also strongly endorse mtgotraders. I have used the coupon code "numotpaypal" (without quotes) for the same discount, which I believe is 8%. Note that the discount is available only if you are paying cash via paypal (versus with mtgo event tickets). Right now, the mtgotraders "sell" price for black lotus, with the discount, is $133.11. That is actually slightly less then their advertised "buy" price in tickets(!), and is lower than the price price listed on cardhoarder, cardnexus, dojotradebots, or GoatBots (cardhoarders was the second lowest, with a cash price of $136).

If you haven't bought cards from one of these sites, the way it works is you complete the transaction on their website via paypal, with your mtgo account open. You give them you mtgo user name, and their bot initiates the trade within the game. It is surprisingly fast and easy. If you want to do a test run, you can buy a low value card to see how it works.

Note that their mtgotraders does not have the best prices if you are paying in tickets, whether you initiate their transaction with their tradebots or on mtgo. For that, I've found cardnexus, goatbots, or dojotradebots seems to be best. But I haven't yet won enough tickets for that to be an issue for me Also, cardhoarders and mtgotraders have larger selections, and are more likely to have what you need.

You can find deals from individual users if you are patient, but the MTGO trading platform and makes it hard for individual users to find each other among the sea of bots. And you'll never pay less for a card than the advertised buy price of the major websites, so there isn't a whole lot of value to be saved, especially for premium cards that have a relatively thin buy/sell margins.

Good luck, and hope to see you on MTGO soon!

The majority of tournament announcements do not currently include a "location tag". Without location tags, it is difficult to find events in a particular area, because there are so many posts in the forum. Even those that are tagging events are not doing so in a uniform fashion. In addition to a plethora of sub-regional tags, for example, there are three different tags for online events: "Magic Online," "MTGO," and "MTGO P9."

This is a real problem for me. I recently missed a local event because it was not tagged (the Eudemonia tournament on September 18 was not tagged "West Coast USA"). And I was unaware of CardHoarder's free online tournament series because they were tagged "MTGO" versus "Magic Online".

The old system was better in this regard, because it forced anyone posting an event to select one of a small number of sub-forums.

Is it possible to redesign the "tournament announcement" page so that users must select at one of a small number of regional tags, and make these tags uniform and truly comprehensive (e.g. by continent) so that all posts fit under at least one and users are not free to generate their own? (It is fine to include additional regional markers, so long as one of the specified tags is listed). Or if this cannot be accomplished through tags, could we accomplish this by emulating the old TMD's sub-forum approach?

Short of a technical fix, could moderators and users please help remind tournament organizers to include one of the tags specified in Andy's "How to Post a Tournament Announcement!" instructional post ([http://www.themanadrain.com/topic/155/how-to-post-a-tournament-announcement]).

Thanks all!

@Islandswamp said:

On a side note, my expedition Forbidden Orchards appear to give my opponents foil Spirit Tokens. Seems like a poor use of resources...

Thank you @islandswamp, I spit coffee through my nose when I read this.

If judges are employees, there's a lot more at stake than how much they are paid.

Below is what I've been playing since the latest B&R changes with modest some success (3-1 in a daily & 3-2 and 5-0 in the league). Basically cut a third preordain for a second bargain from my standard DPS list (definitely not certain that's correct, as I side out the second bargain a lot).

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Badlands
1 Black Lotus
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Petition
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Gitaxian Probe
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Necropotence
4 Polluted Delta
1 Ponder
1 Sol Ring
1 Brainstorm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
2 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Swamp
2 Thoughtseize
1 Defense Grid
2 Preordain

2 Ancient Tomb
3 Ravenous Trap
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Defense Grid
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Island

I do think this has some advantages over PO Storm. It's faster than the slower PO builds, more stable than the faster PO builds (e.g. Reid Duke's with 4 Mox Opal and 2 Grim Monolith, which seems to have fallen out of favor), and less vulnerable to null rod effects (although they can still hurt depending on what we've drawn). Also, using duress effects for protection over FoW and other countermagic means our protection spells are less costly overall, and we make much better use of defense grid. Of course we lose the ability to be reactive, which makes us more vulnerable to shops.

However, I'll freely admit that the biggest reason I play this on MODO over PO storm is that I own the cards (virtual FoW and mox opal are pricey!), so my perspective is definitely biased. Regardless, I do hope the latest changes allow dark rituals to reclaim a place in the meta.

*edit#1 on 9/9/17: Just realized the aforementioned daily was before the latest b&r change. Sorry for the misrepresentation.

*edit#2 on 9/16/17: Updated to reflect fact that I just went 5-0 in my second MTGO Vintage league with this list. Played Ravager Shops, Delver, Dredge, Oath, and Uwx, if I remember correctly.

Sorry I missed this. Still atoning for GP Vegas. Hope to make the next one!

For dp storm, my plan a is tinker, memory jar, and either mystical tutor or preordain. Possibly should just be 3 preordain though.

@bips Sorry! I skipped Europe because its already specified in the Tournament Announcement instructions.

@aardshark Andy, as a compliment to the above post, could your tournament announcement instructions be revised to specify that tournament announcements must include exactly one of a small number of specified regional tags. You could clarify that posts may include additional, sub-regional tags so long as they include one of the specified tags.

The regional tags would need to be modified or expanded so that they are truly comprehensive. This could be accomplished by adding additional to your current list regional tags at the continent level: [Africa]; [Africa]; [Australia] [North America-other]; [South America]; and (for completeness) [Antarctica].

This would make it much easier for users and moderators to identify posts that do not include one of the specified tags, and encourage the posters to tag their tournament announcement as appropriate.

Thanks for your consideration.

The majority of tournament announcements do not currently include a "location tag". Without location tags, it is difficult to find events in a particular area, because there are so many posts in the forum. Even those that are tagging events are not doing so in a uniform fashion. In addition to a plethora of sub-regional tags, for example, there are three different tags for online events: "Magic Online," "MTGO," and "MTGO P9."

This is a real problem for me. I recently missed a local event because it was not tagged (the Eudemonia tournament on September 18 was not tagged "West Coast USA"). And I was unaware of CardHoarder's free online tournament series because they were tagged "MTGO" versus "Magic Online".

The old system was better in this regard, because it forced anyone posting an event to select one of a small number of sub-forums.

Is it possible to redesign the "tournament announcement" page so that users must select at one of a small number of regional tags, and make these tags uniform and truly comprehensive (e.g. by continent) so that all posts fit under at least one and users are not free to generate their own? (It is fine to include additional regional markers, so long as one of the specified tags is listed). Or if this cannot be accomplished through tags, could we accomplish this by emulating the old TMD's sub-forum approach?

Short of a technical fix, could moderators and users please help remind tournament organizers to include one of the tags specified in Andy's "How to Post a Tournament Announcement!" instructional post ([http://www.themanadrain.com/topic/155/how-to-post-a-tournament-announcement]).

Thanks all!

@Islandswamp First I heard of the FB group as well. I hope I just found it. I am requesting an invite via my "real" name "Galen Lemei".

Would also love info on the bi-weekly @No_Outs tourneys. (I think I may have played in one of these once, but didn't know it was a regular thing.)

Thanks!

According to the archive site, I registered in February 2007, although I was definitely lurking in early 2006.

I am an attorney with the California Energy Commission, a state agency with various responsibilities relating to energy and efficiency policy, including regulating the efficiency of appliances and buildings, permitting power plants, providing grants for RD&D, etc. I'm a jack of all trades around here, but basically I try to make things more defensible and suck less. For several years, I served as a policy advisor for one of our Commissioners.

@Brass-Man said:

If Storm is on 4 maindeck Grid and Mentor is on Duress+JVP+Tormod's Crypt+Sphere of Resistance, the Storm player is going to lose most of the time.

If Storm is on 10 discard spells and Mentor is on Remora + Traps + Flusterstorms , the Storm player is going to lose most of the time.

... but if the Mentor player with a deck full of Flusterstorms tries to beat the Storm player with maindeck Grids, he's going to get steamrolled ...

In my experience, the latter is the far most common configuration in the current metagame. Most gush builds have only 4 FOW and possibly a single ancient grudge in the maindeck to deal with grid. Even after sideboard, their artifact removal is only useful for dealing with grid.

I have yet to face a Gush-Mentor deck with sphere of resistance. In theory, gush decks play all sorts of hateful permanents to deal with storm, although some of the scariest cards (spheres, cannonist, teeg, arcain lab) hurt their own game plan almost as much as storm's. So maybe it isn't surprising that currently most Gush decks aren't doing that.

So, if your point is that Gush-Mentor is a super-strong shell that could be easily adopted to beat current storm builds, including those relying on defense grid, I certainly agree.

But to answer the question initially posed, I would feel pretty comfortable bringing to the mentor-infested 8-man a DPS build with 4 maindeck grids, and maybe tinker-colossus in the side as a level-up for random hate, along with a few slots reserved for shop and dredge. Unfortunately, I would probably lose to @Stormanimagus's humans, especially if he swaps containment priests for cannonists...