@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
@mike-noble said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
@desolutionist said in [ELD] Wishclaw Talisman:
Fast mana has always been restricted. Any card they print that uses the unrestricted fast mana is going to be too good.
Whether or not I agree with anything anyone is saying, I like the sentiment that Survival of the Fittest is too good because Elvish Spirit Guide is unrestricted.
Yeah and Gemstone Caverns too. Way too good.
Mishra's Workshop is fine though because it only casts artifacts...
@desolutionist said in SMIP: My Suggested B&R List (2019):
Like why is Mystical Tutor-Tinker-Bolas totally fine, but Workshop, Mox, Mystic Forge is some scary thing that people can't handle. Blue can have all these avenues to do whatever they want and as soon as Shops as something reliably decent, it's a huge problem for the internet.
Because Mystical Tutor and Tinker are restricted and Mishra's Workshop is not.
So UW control with Lavinia in it seems pretty absurd. You can counter everything but opponents can't FoW or misstep back. Throw in wastelands to keep the opponent's land count down and caverns to safely land Lavinia and other humans (Snapcaster, baby Jace and finisher Mentor) and you're good to go : )
I agree. This card slots into blue white landstill very easily and is excellent in that deck making all your counterspells more difficult to counter and also hosing opposing "unfair" strategies. Isn't dredge traditionally a difficult match up for landstill in game one?
While I have concerns that xerox and paradoxical will slot her into their maindeck to consolidate the meta it seems just as likely that this card will bolster landstill against paradoxical causing a shift to a slightly more diverse meta. I'm looking forward to seeing how this plays out. Hoping for the latter option of course.
@stormanimagus It only appears so low as a result of the changes to how league results are reported by Wizards. That's why it jumps to 50% for larger events. They can't hide that data by selectively reporting results (like they do with the 5-0 league results).
@topical_island Good Point. That was a poor example. There aren't that many other situation where there might be riders
on a land but, you're right, Boseiju doesn't get hit by sphere because it doesn't produce multiple mana. I've edited the original post.
Thanks for pointing it out.
The amount of mana is changed but all riders on it remain the same.
This is also the case with other cards which have a similar effect such as Contamination.
Incidentally, Untaidake, the Cloud keeper can only be used to cast legendary spells even while there is a damping
sphere in play.
Alternatively, if you control an Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth or a Chromatic Lantern then both Mishra's Workshop and Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper may be used to cast non-artifact and non-legendary spells. This is because cards like Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth et al. grant the land an additional ability which does not have the same inherent rider associated with it.
Another interesting corner case is when a player has a Mana Flare or Wild Growth type of effect. Since the land that is tapped for mana is not the source of the additional mana it will not be affected by Damping Sphere; however, in the case of a card like Mana Reflection, which directly modifies the amount of mana a land produces, damping sphere will cause all of those lands to produce ◇ insteaad of any other type and amount.
Something worth noting is that if there are two replacement effects modifying the same mana ability it is up to the controller of that mana ability to decide what order the replacement affects are applied. In some cases this allows the controller of the mana ability to chose which replacement affect applies last and thus control the resultant outcome of the two replacement effects; however, there are also many occasions where that choice is not relevant to the outcome and the result will be the same no matter what order they are applied in. For example, if a player controls a Mishra's Workshop and there is a Damping Sphere and a Contamination on the battlefield then the controller of the Mishra's Workshop can chose the order in which to apply each replacement effect. If they chose to order Damping Sphere's effect first followed by Contamination's then Mishra's Workshop will be modified to add ◇ instead of 3 and then Contamination's effect will apply causing it to add instead of ◇. If they chose to order Contamination's effect first followed by Damping Sphere's then Mishra's Workshop will be modified to add instead of 3 after which Damping Sphere's effect will no longer apply since it isn't adding more than one mana anymore.
@brass-man I should have included it in the post.
In EDH Lion's Eye Diamond is used instead of Black Lotus but the loop is as follows:
Play Muldrotha, the Gravetide (possibly from command zone off of Lion's Eye Diamond or maybe off of Oath of Druids. Doesn't matter) then use the ability to cast a clone effect. People talk about Phantasmal Image a lot but I prefer Dance of Many. Copy Muldrotha, the Gravetide and allow the original copy to die to the legend rule. Next cast Lion's Eye Diamond from the graveyard; or in our case, Black Lotus. Sacrifice it for enough mana to cast Animate Dead targeting the original Muldrotha, the Gravetide which is in your graveyard due to state based effects (Legend Rule). Then repeat with Dance of Many replaying Black Lotus again until you have as much mana as you want. Then you can use that mana to loop Muldrotha, the Gravetide and cast every non-enchantment permanent in your graveyard as many times as you want. I guess one advantage of using Phantasmal Image over Dance of Many is that you get to loop infinite enchantments spells from your graveyard which you couldn't do otherwise.
Edit: I see someone else already answered you.. whoops
Another difference between Muldrotha, the Gravetide and Sun Titan is that you don't have to play Saheeli Rai. I would expect to be able to pull more in-game value out of Dance of Many or Animate Dead than two copies of Saheeli Rai but maybe I'm missing something.
For what it's worth, I agree that there is something here that might be Vintage worthy. If you hadn't posted this I would have written something similar my self.
Currently there are several infinite combos involving this card which use clone effects and Animate Dead to produce infinite mana and infinite opportunities to cast permanent spells from the graveyard. There are already EDH lists which are available based on infinite loops involving Muldrotha, the Gravetide. Preliminary testing appears promising in that format but EDH is not Vintage. The first questions I asked my self when I saw this card spoiled was whether it was better than the currently available graveyard recursion infinite combos that Oath grants access to. The two most famous of these engines are Black Lotus + Auriok Salvagers and Saheeli Rei + Sun Titan.
Auriok Salvagers is easier to hard cast but does less things and costs more mana if you don't already have Black Lotus; therefore, Muldrotha, the Gravetide is potentially better if you're either not worried about having enough mana against a Graffdigger's Cage or if you are up against an opponent who has managed to exile your Black Lotus. If, for example, they have used Tormod's Crypt on your graveyard while lotus is in it then Muldrotha, the Gravetide has a greater potential to allow you to recur a broader array of permanents from your graveyard once you've refilled it than you could with Auriok Salvagers. You also don't need to play white to access them. If white is the fourth colour in your Oath of Druids build then that can mean a lot.
Sun Titan is the same converted mana cost but again is white which, depending on other choices you've made in the colours of cards in your deck, can be more difficult to produce. The black tutors have a long history of being included in Oath of Druids decks so there is incentive on all sides when considering playing black as your third colour, playing a non-black third colour, or playing four colours. That is something that you'll have to decide when considering whether to play Muldrotha, the Gravetide in an Oath of Druids shell.
I have played both Eternal Witness and Snapcaster Mage in Oath of Druids prior to this card being spoiled and I firmly believe that there is a potential meta that would allow that to be a worthy consideration but I have no idea if the current vintage climate in any particular locale or MTGO would be suited to playing those cards with Oath of Druids. The fact that they're not seeing play already leads me to believe they are not worthwhile inclusions at this time. Eternal Witness plus Muldrotha, the Gravetide plus a sacrifice outlet allows for multiple ways to take infinite turns with Time Walk or Time Vault but the same was always true of Sun Titan also and as far as I know there are no competitive lists aiming to do that. That suggests to me that it may not be playable in any particular meta at this time. I would expect it to be be similarly disincentivized in an Oath of Druids deck based on Muldrotha, the Gravetide.
It seems likely to me that the best build which involves Muldrotha, the Gravetide would include an infinite mana loop involving Black Lotus, Animate Dead, and Dance of Many but would also include other value engines for situations where an opponent has managed to exile one of the combo pieces.
It is also worth noting that this card is more susceptible to removal than most of the Oath of Druids targets which currently see play. You cannot access it's ability during your upkeep in the normal case which means this card does nothing against a well timed Swords to Plowshares or Karakas activation. This downside is reduced when Muldrotha, the Gravetide is cast from hand but when Oath of Druids places Muldrotha, the Gravetide into play there is the potential for it to do literal nothing against instant speed removal. This is the single most important downside to playing Muldrotha, the Gravetide over the already establish suites of Oath of Druids targets that are currently seeing play.
@poxeveryturn said in Another 2nd place finish on Lands and encouraging others to give it a try!:
@rolko I’ve also been testing Abeyance and Angel’s Grace for the really fast combo decks. Angel’s Grace has been pretty busted in several test games.
I also think there’s some merit to something like rule of law or arcane lab which I’ve done some testing with in the past. That affect helps a lot of matchups and this deck can easily get away with one spell a turn because it does so much without playing spells.
One of the reasons I keep the mana confluences in over fetches and duals is to have the ability to open the board to any colors I think will be helpful and not get chocked on any color. I know a lot of people disagree with this approach but it has served me well.
If you're considering Abeyance and Angel's Grace the is it possible that the mana base could be altered to support Stony Silence in the main deck over Null Rod thus solving the Hurkyl's Recall issue you mentioned earlier thus allowing artifacts such as damping sphere et al. to be a more reliable sideboard option? It's possible that the constraints on the main deck mana base might not be worth the benefit but it may also be worth considering that main deck artifact destruction is much more common than main deck enchantment removal. Based on just reading this thread it seems like the change could have the added benefit of shoring up the weaker match-ups.