This and all local vintage metas i keep hearing about make me want to move to New England.
There's some little talk about doing a large yearly even in a similar vein here in the PNW with Card Kingdom's storefront. We have a monthly sanctioned Vintage right now but probably a ways off from a big enough event to draw attendance from across the nation.
He has a very Squee-like effect vs controlling decks
I brought up Pharaoh before and opinions don't seem to have changed. I think Pharaoh's highest potential is that it's 'fine'. I could see punching back and forth with shops, and it's also a way to guarantee you have a creature in hand for Survival. But in playing i still have not had a reasonable chance to test him so i'm not sure if that grind factor really applies to shops. But, i have run out of creatures and just wished i had Bazaar to put a creature in my hand, so that's kinda cool with Pharaoh and with Gigapede. Gigapede has to have another card in hand but guarantees you get a body in hand. I just don't think that's as exciting as having another Squee because i have never been in a situation (so far. again; i don't play online so i don't play as much as much as others responding) where i'm like "welp, time to cast 5 drops old fashioned". I barely ever cast Vengevine so far.
Any updates on this list?
Have you seen/like Trinisphere in the main?
Have you seen/like Dark Depths in 2CM?
I played against a 2cm deck at Eternal Weekend a year ago, and they had StageDepths with Crucibles and Mirage Mirrors and probably 2 Strips. Saw Bazaar as well. They had Leyline/Helm, not sure if they had Goblin, Grindstone, or Servant; they may be what was cut from their version.
What's your take on Wheel? Jar is clearly superior, although i feel like squeezing in another draw 7. I'm not a player of this deck, just thinking about it.
@AeonSovarius This is actually a great opportunity for me, as I was starting to write a dredge primer for vintage. This will allow me to collect and summarize my thoughts, so hopefully I do a good job!
Super great help actually. Good timing, and @volrathxp just posted a video on pitch dredge yesterday!
Personally I dislike Gurmag Angler, and I think many people would agree. He is simply counter-intuitive to how dredge function at a basic level.
Oh for sure. I think people aren't going for dredging when they use this, though, but rather as a 1 mana 5/5 as long as the graveyard isn't exile.
- Lands: As with nearly all cards, this depends on your list. If you are running more Blooghast, you can run more consistent lands like Dakmor Salvage and Undiscovered Paradise. You do not have any other reason to not run the Rainbow land, as far as I know.
You wouldn't run Paradise if you weren't casting spells and having Bloodghast. I see a good number of lists with barely any land or strictly just the 4 Bazaar or 4 Bazaar/2 Dakmor. The side has 6-7 lands and removal (Claim, Wispmare, Chewer). I'm not sure what the sideboard plan is though? (this is pitch dredge lists i've seen, maybe you board out counters)
- Creeping Chill: I personally really like the card, but it is completely unproven. I think if Oath or DPS where to become meta, then it could potential be good.
Why would you said it's good against oath?
- GY hate: I would say this has to do with the expected meta. I would avoid Ravenous Trap, as it seems very risky and bad in the mirror. For Leyline, it is generally seen as a low cost inclusion that can help you against a fair amount of the field because of how most decks abuse the graveyard.
My question was in regards to playing it in the main board. As far as i can tell, it is reasonable because you have such a huge g1 win %, those 3-4 cards don't matter vs any deck you autowin against, but is what makes the g1 mirror better. I've only seen a couple lists with rav trap or leyline in the main. But yeah for sure, hurts traditional storm and oath and lots of things on the side.
First, i am not even remotely versed in Dredge, and not really a Vintage pro at all.
But i have the paper cards to build any Dredge version so i can loan it out for events or practice against it. However, there are so many varieties of Dredge i see on MTGtop8 and the further i go back in time the more i see. And while i have the cards for all versions now, what i really want to be able to do is not constantly be switching out cards.
I have so many questions! I want to build something that is understandable and quality enough for FNM and such.
What's a "standard dredge" deck look like? Is any version at the moment considered the best variety?
Pitch dredge seems real fancy but must be less explosive?
I see versions with Gurmag Angler and Hollow one in the side, i see version with 4 Hollow One main??
I see versions with Bloodghast and Undiscovered/rainbow lands, but i see version with Bazaars and 1 Salvage only with the lands in the side?
Is Creeping Chill the real deal or is it a card that's better considered currently unproven/in testing?
Dread Return targets i see Elesh Norn, but doesn't it seem the triggered ability pump of Flamekin dodges spot removal better?
I see lists with either 4x Leyline of the Void or 3-4x Ravenous Trap to (i presume) beat opposing Dredge. Does this watering down just not matter because of how overwhelming and unstoppable Dredge is against most decks G1?
I have seen 4x Serum Powder and i have also seen 0 Powder main (if i recall correctly there were a few in the side).
Thanks for any help!
Also important to note that the difference between 1 and 2 damage (Kambal) is huge, since with Kambal in play Tendrils is not a wincon anymore.
I don't think that's what's key. Kambal gains you life. Tendrils still kills you with Cinder Lash in play, they just about 9 or 10 damage (assuming they don't have to take a line of casting their whole deck with paradoxical just to fine tendrils).
This is far less like Kambal than it is Pyrostatic Pillar/ScabClan/Eidolon (but does hit any cmc non-creature spell).
This doesn't seem that good in pitch dredge? You still get almost-guaranteed Bazaar turn 1 but does the deck need more blue cards?
Like yes drawing JTMS in a topdeck war is better, but you can only run so many of them and he does not provide the other utility.
One thing to consider when you say you can play this alongside Jace is not just the planeswalker rule aspect, but how many 4 drops you're planning on playing.
@wagner I saw Niv MIzzet (and i played a lot of Niv Mizzet Oath and still do), A Trophy, Mission Briefing (which i also play), Knight of Autumn. But @fsecco just reminded me of Cratermaker so i saw 5.
And I didn't personally see Molderhulk, Frenzy, and Ral Zarek but those cards listed by fsecco also undoubtedly saw at least marginal experimental play.
At a time where most sets don't even include a Vintage playable card, I'm just always excited to see a new card that could shake things up a bit, especially one that has an ability we've never seen before.
No? I haven't been actually playing Vintage for too long, but there are a ton of new cards in Vintage for sure. I saw four Guilds of Ravnica cards at Eternal Weekend for example.
I think Lavinia seems suited for a midrange deck, maybe even some greedy 4c abomination like the red Leovold decks or Sylvan Mentor. Maybe you play "mono asymmetrical hate" with Lavinia, Leovold, Notion Thief, and Kambal for some ground pounders and some restricted draw spells, Stony Silence, and counters?
I have long played red Leovold deck mixups like your standard greedy midrange/control, with and without tinker, and with the whole Grixis Thieves deck plus Leo. Thinking i'll get some white cards and try some nonsense for fun regardless of Lavinia pans out.
@moorebrother1 Force is not that great in fair control matchups, it's card disadvantage, a lot of people side Forces out and bring in Pyroblasts and Flusterstorms.
Vs Reanimator it virtually only stops Unmask. In Legacy, casting Lavinia means tapping 2 lands, so there isn't really a point in time where the Reanimator deck isn't also going to have 2 lands. Technically Lavinia on turn 1 stops reanimation from casting Exhume on turn 1 but turn 1 Lavinia decks are not a thing in Legacy. Reanimator doesn't play 3cmc+ spells or anything for free (but unmask, on both accounts).
Against storm i think this is cool. It counters Lotus Petals, Lion's Eyes, and you can't ritual-power out an early Ad Nauseam or Dark Petition or sometimes Past in Flames in less frequent cases (easily castable card on turn 3 when you LED to generate mana after it resolves).
And of course, you flatly cannot win until turn 4 because you can't cast Tendrils.
What is super cool though, is one of the best removal spells vs Lavinia is Massacre. Which is a good card because you get to cast it for free against white weenie instead of it's high 4cmc, but Lavinia protects you from the card in 2 ways.
@thelastgnu You are correct, but what people are referring to is the ability to tap out and cast misstep (it's greatest strength; this card would not be playable if it cost 1 blue mana). It makes very difficult to cast when the design of the card and the design of decks that play this card is to not pay mana. So misstep wars become lopsided very quickly and you can't tap out against Lavinia.
It also neuters Probe, which granted is restricted, but Probe is just another card people only play because it is free. People don't play Peek anymore, it's just not a good card.
@joshuabrooks since I live in Mexico City and selling stuff will require at least some negotiating of shipping, I believe I'll try Facebook first.
Shipping can be quite pricey, but your cards are pricey. The big thing is to include that in the cost of doing business and be aware of customs regulations and duties. Many (virtually all) sellers/buyers on facebook lie on customs and write something like 10$ so there is not a huge tax coming through country borders.
I'm not currently comfortable selling the more expensive stuff for ebay prices. They seem too low.
I would not list your starting prices at the lowest auctions values per ebay. But you have to consider:
- If your item is in a similar condition but more expensive, a buyer will spend their money at a reputable dealer.
- If your item is at a similar price, they will spend their money on a dealer inside their country.
Since it's a frigging huge collection, I can't price everything with caution.
I highly suggest it though. Based on your comments about Ebay being too low, it seems you want the most money possible. You have to do work to get the most.
I'll probably announce the cards saying só: that prices are highly negotiable, for less or for more, since what I announce today can change in weeks.
I think this makes sense. List at a market price with a disclaimer that if your listing is out of date or if the item is currently spiking you may need to revise. I think your wording should be a little careful, if you say you may want more for it later, it might signal to people (whether you mean to or not) that you want to squablle over $25 on a $1200 item.
I have another question for you guys
I also have complete sets of Arabian Nights, Antiquities and Legends. I think these are better to sell as complete sets, right? Or should I sell card by card? I wonder if doing that wouldn't just leave me with a bunch of bulk.
There are groups on facebook that specialize in all sorts of things. I think you could find a buyer for these at an appropriate price. In general there are less buyers so it may move slow.
Breaking up those sets does mean you end up with some bulk, but you might find buyers faster.
@joshuabrooks I can also go to events in the US to sell stuff. If there's a GP or big Vintage event I can travel, play, and sell cards (depending on the size of the purchase)
Given how large your collection is, it might be well worth considering a plane ticket regardless of any events if you could find a large buyer. However, the people with $30k to spend are dealers so that would also be back to square one if you don't want to sell under Ebay.
I 100% think you won't get good deals for yourself if you won't research prices though.
The only way is the manual labor of searching ebay completes to get an idea what people will pay. MKM and TCG are good too, but depends on product. TCG sellers are always overpriced compared the values people buy and sell at on a market like facebook when looking at power and such. Like what you already said, the high-volume cards are more 'accurately' priced. Similarly, TCG Median and TCG Market are different metrics which have pros and cons. A downside is that Market and Median on TCG are just bad metrics for power.
Taking SCG and reducing prices by 35% might give you good numbers. But maybe their particular item is well over 35% of what it can be had for on Ebay, and no one will buy from you. Maybe 35% off SCG on a particular item translates to under Card Kingdom buylist, and you definitely don't want to do that.
Depending on your time frame to sell, you will want to beat the market prices at different amounts. If you aren't beating market prices, you aren't incentivizing anyone who can get your product on TCG, Ebay, a major store, a GP, etc. But if you are really in no hurry whatsoever to sell, you don't have to cut off your price, you could just wait until it's worth your listed price or other supply dries up.
For example, many people on Facebook are accustomed to purchasing stuff at 10% under other options. Sellers on Ebay and TCG pay fees and have to contend with unhappy customers (refunds and chargebacks and what not). Selling for 10% under on Facebook gets you close to what you'd get after fees and also lets you dodge certain troubles you'd expose yourself to presenting as a 'real store'.
You can't easily use a spreadsheet from any site and get an accurate reading, there will be too much variance or the seller you get prices from will be higher priced than anyone is willing to pay from a random player.
I would wait a few months to sell if you can. Tax returns will change prices and there will be more buyers.
If you want to sell fast, just take a good inventory and pics and send it to a ton of vendors and resellers. I suppose you already know buylists exist so i assume this isn't what you're looking for.
I trade and sell a lot over faceook, including tons of high end stuff. Feel free to shoot me a message and i can answer questions or give you more ideas on how i price cards to sale, i can even help you sale if that is something you are into.
I just strongly suggest putting the labor hours into individually pricing it all for the best money. You could also just auction the whole entire lot but you will take a big hit overall.
The best way to do it is look at your collection, come up with a number ($15K?$20K?), and then just stick to your guns until you get what you are happy with. Expecting to price individually and not get offers at only 50 to 60% of it will be tough, especially since the Old School market has cooled down and most likely wont pick up again until March/April/Tax Season in the US. I can quickly flip through my "brag book" and quote a number that I'd part with the cards for; it's all just cardboard anyways right?
Exactly. But in order to have that ballpark I need to at least evaluate everything. Deckbox did that automatically for me, but I want to make sure they're not tripping in their prices. If it was a 10-20k collection it'd be way easier to do.
I don't see how what they said was in any way, shape, or form valuable advice. It won't help you sell cards in a timely manner if that's your goal.
If you want to draw Legacy players, 10/15 proxies should definitely cover it, since they should already have duals. The most expensive cards outside of that and besides power ought to be Mana Crypt, Jace, and Force, and 2 of those are the kinds of things i'd expect legacy players to have already.
10 proxies can you you p9+library (and call p9 either twister or vault, most decks don't run both except thieves anyway).
10 Proxies gets you 5 moxes, Lotus, 4 Workshop and the most expensive card to shops outside that is mana vault.
I try to get people to play any% proxies and it's difficult. Good luck!
Bloodghast? Tried looking through the thread and didn't see this either. Extra neat body to pitch to bazaar and survival, it can have haste all by itself, gives more of an aggro edge to the all-out fighting package.
Vengeful Pharoah: not a relevant ability for Vinage games.
Mental Misstep: I’ve been playing 3 in a non-FoW, non-Thalia version and been pleased with it.
Dryad Arbor: is fine, not great. The Survival interaction is neat but hardly something you’ll do. Works well if you want to play Cradle though.
Mana Confluence: you could build the mana base off these if you wanted, but you’d have to eschew DRS.
Pharaoh; isn't it nice to have another removal, although it is passive (which is just not ideal), it is repeatable and if you want to use it to guarantee a creature draw you can? After bringing out your VV team if you've discarded your hand to bazaar or survival, you draw this and start a survival chain again to bring back the VV team. I specifically only envision this being valuable against another creature matchup: Shops, Survival Mirror, possibly Dredge. Maybe Oath for all i know, but as an Oath player i just feel like i might sit back and block until i have a better state. I know spot removal is generally not considered vintage viable but it does give you some grind factor and utility.
Mental Misstep: Would you ever play both Misstep and Thalia? They seem like a nonbo but they do different things. Not saying it's better or good at all but just wondering.
Dryad Arbor: the interaction is hardly something you'll ever do? I keep finding situations where i wish i could pitch that to survival, which gives DRS another mana source. Just a general use, but you could also have 1 mana left and 2 creatures in hand, pitch the Dryad and then have a new mana with DRS to activate survival for the other creature. Unfortunately it doesn't count towards Vengevine trigger.
What don't you like about it? I see it was in your original list? Just slow? I may be doing something wrong with my inexperience but every few games i say to myself "hmm, damn, a Dryad Arbor would be interesting here".
@aeonsovarius One issue with Mana Confluence is that it doesn't activate Wonder when you need it. So you still need at least one Tropical Island in the deck and you also might need to fetch it proactively, which is inconvenient if you're on the kind of five-color list that would benefit from a rainbow land.
I think Demonic Tutor is probably too expensive to be a fifth Survival/Bazaar. Entomb might be interesting though, in a black-heavy version.
Yeah, you are both right. DRS needs fetches and Wonder needs islands. I will try out confluence, i feel pretty certain it could be useful as a 2-of. We certainly can pay a couple life.
Notably though, i don't think Confluence is useless outside of anything less than 5 colors. All our fetch targets are green (and for good reason, no argument there) which means we can't play a Tundra or Underground Sea for easier color management. Confluence cast both sides of Grudge, any part of Leovold, casts Stony Silence or activates Survival.
2 Confluence though may mean we play more lands and that might be the biggest, or tied with other reasons, why we can't use it. There's little room to skim on other lands.
Entomb i think needs a specific effective gimmick to be worthwhile, but certainly sounds interesting. I mean we get Wonder when we don't have Survival (or naturally draw our 1-of AND bazaar), it gets half on Ancient Grudge, it gets Squee, it gets a land for DRS, and most notably it puts a Vengevine in the yard. It's kind of worse/different Survival i think, but does get to hit other things.
Demonic just crosses my mind as a generic but super powered card. You don't even have to get Bazaar or Survival with it to be good, you might also specifically want Chalice or a different non-creature. DT for Lotus is also a very strong play in this deck i think (and many decks anyway, but you know).
I'm going to try out Mana Crypt for sure, we shall see. Bloodghast might be a different build entirely but i want to try that as well. Maybe it wont' be good, maybe the deck for it should actually just even more aggro with less hate cards but seems sketch.