@ajfirecracker I believe a Bazaar/Vengevine deck with Mishra's Workshops to power Sphere of Resistance and CMC=X creatures has seen some success on MTGO and predates this build of the deck. I tried finding a list on MTGGoldfish but couldn't, it's possible I'm mixing it up with the Zias Workshop/Dredge lists. In preparation for the event I tested a list with Workshop and Skullclamp, but ultimately I liked this better.
I built and played a HollowVine variant for the recent Team Serious Invitational and finished in 2nd. I went 5-0 (no draws) in the Swiss, and lost in the finals to a player I beat earlier in the day. I couldn't be happier with the list. Working on this deck has been a ton of fun ... it forces you to think about the game in a way that's less traditionally Vintagey, it kind of uses Dredge reasoning to do non-Dredge things, and I think an experience Standard aggro player would get a kick out of it.
It does one of two things, it does them on the first turn, and it does them very consistently. Bazaar of Baghdad can put a 4/x (Hollow One/Vengevine) into play, or artifact mana/Elvish Spirit Guide will put a hate-bear (Thalia, Guardian of Thraben/Collector Ouphe) into play. Often both.
On reflection, I believe this is a Sligh deck. Not in the sense that it's aggressive, but that it's a deck that was willing to run Brass Man because having a one-drop was more important than having a not-terrible card. I'll get more into that below.
Here's the decklist, with a built in primer:
2nd Place: Andy Probasco
Play a hatebear
Attack for 4
Follow up with
Here's how I sideboarded:
-4 Stonecoil Wurm
-2 Deathrite Shaman
-1 Strip Mine
+4 Mindbreak Trap
+4 Force of Vigor
-1 Thorn of Amethyst
-1 Chalice of the Void
-4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+4 Force of Vigor
+2 Kataki, War's Wage
+3 Leyline of the Void
+2 Surgical Extraction
-4 Collector Ouphe
-1 Chalice of the Void
Personal opinion, of course, but I think the use of hatebears is an upgrade (side-grade?) over other hate packages. I won a third to half of my games without active Bazaar, and I feel that if I had pitch counters or Spheres over Thalia/Ouphe, I would have slowed my opponent down more effectively, but given them more than enough time to comeback from it. Thalis and Ouphes triggering Vengevines is also pretty significant. I do think that the counters/spheres are better disruption if you already have a strong hand without them.
The **Outcome ** matchup feels very good, despite being my one loss. No matchup feels particularly bad in the way that Shops v Outcome does. I think you can build a reasonable deck that's very favorable against this, but there aren't metagame incentives to do that right now. I was most afraid of BUG with Tarmogoyf and Tabernacle, but I beat them 2-0.
The weakest card in the deck was Stonecoil Wurm, which I ran over Memnite because I wanted a way to kill Bridge from Below against Dredge. I'm not sure if there's a minimum number of free creatures you need to run to make the deck work - bad free creatures might be a necessary evil.
Surgical Extractions are a nod to the TSI metagame where Survival is more likely than Dredge. I'd probably run more dedicated Dredge hate in the Champs metagame, but so far I've been very favorable against the deck despite not dedicating many cards to it.
Kataki, War's Wage is very bad against Walking Ballista. I thought that the Collector Ouphes would make it better, but I'm not sure that they do. It's really nice in that matchup to have your hate card be a 1W creature, but I'm not sure it's correct.
Once the deck stalls out, it's very unlikely to recover, creatures such as Tarmogoyf that can block a 4/x are very scary, though in practice I've been able to pressure fast enough to force my opponent into bad attacks or blocks. I have this weird feeling that the Exalted trigger on a Noble Hierarch could be really effective against opposing Lhurgoyfs/Constructs/Eldrazi, but with the deck as it is there just isn't much use for the mana, and maybe a Path to Exile would be better.
It doesn't use the graveyard as much as you think. It doesn't use the graveyard as much as your opponents think. People see Bazaar and Panic but there's just 4 Vengevines in the list and I'm not sure Tormod's Crypt is any more effective than a Swords to Plowshares. I do think perhaps there's some opportunity to run a few more graveyard-centric cards and I want to try Ox of Agonas in this
Once Upon a Time is really good. It's probably great in Survival and solid in Dredge. I have a lot of thoughts about it, some unintuitive. People see the card as a way to find Bazaar more consistently, but in a Bazaar reliant deck, you can't keep an opening hand that has OuaT and no Bazaar. The card is at its best in a hand that can be greatly improved by a specific Land/Creature, but still has plays if you miss. In that sense I think that this list is one of the best homes for the card, but it's excellent in Survival as well (maybe better). This deck just just need Bazaar, it has a ton of hands that need one particular piece to take them over the edge and Once Upon a Time gets all of them. It gets Vengevine to make your Bazaars better and Basking Rootwalla to make your Vengevines better. It gets Collector Ouphe to shut your opponent down and Elvish Spirit Guide to cast it on turn one. It finds Strip Mine and your opponent groans. I believe I found literally every creature in my deck with OuAT at least one time during the event.
This is maybe the most aggressively mulligan'ing deck I've played, even moreso than Dredge because I'll happily Serum Powder a hand with Bazaar in it. I did more than once and didn't lose those games. On camera I Powdered three times and opened with Bazaar which means I saw literally 30 cards before either player played their first spell.
I think there are some properties of this deck that might not be clear just looking at the list. The combination of Serum Powder/Once Upon A Time/Bazaar of Baghdad compresses your possible opening hands, which makes some lines more common or relevant than they look. Some of your hands are going to be Bazaar hands where other cards don't matter so much. To speak in specifics ... a deck with 4 Elvish Spirit Guide and a bunch of 2 drop HateBears is one of the oldest archetypes in vintage and it's never been particularly dominant, and certainly isn't seen as a "raw power" deck. HateBears are slow most of the time and 4 ESGs isn't enough to consistently play them turn one. This deck isn't any more likely than those decks to have a turn 1 Thalia in a random 7 card hand ... but there is a key difference.
The 7 card hands that go "turn 1 land, ESG, Thalia, turn 2 land Ouphe" are just as common as they were in any other aggro bears deck. Those hands are strong in HateBears and they're strong in HollowBears. The flaw in HateBears is that those hands aren't common enough, and the other possible hands are very weak. Once Upon a Time improves both decks, making those hands more likely. But with HollowBears, some large portion of the hands that don't have that opening, have a strong Bazaar opener instead. But if you don't have either your chance of having a Serum Powder in those remaining cards is much much higher, and Powder is extra strong in that scenario.
The end result is that you see a manabase that looks like manabases you've seen before, but in practice the amount of games you play turn 1 lock piece is much higher than the amount of games you play one on turn 2.
Because of this effect, which honestly I'm having a hard time articulating ... the entire design of this deck is pushed toward your opening hand, and choosing which cards to run seems to be more about crafting a turn 1/turn 2 sequence which work together than it is about finding cards that are particularly good.
There's already great discussion about this deck in the main Survival thread so I don't know if it needs to be forked off, but I've been deep in this archetype later so I wanted to post something.
While the HollowVine deck shares a lot of cards with Survival, I think it's philosophically different, it trades away some versatility and reach, and in return gets some consistency and raw power. I'll try to keep this first post more general and then follow up with my own flavor of the deck.
HollowVine starts with the synergy between these cards, familiar to any Survival player
Where HollowVine decks break from Survival is that they often run (maybe 4 to of additional free creatures, used to trigger the "play two creatures" clause on Vengevine. These are cards like Memnite or Stonecoil Wurm, which, frankly, are not very good on their own, but increase the likelyhood of getting a Vengevine into play on one of the first few turns.
disruption, additional threats, variation and personalization
From here, lists vary widely. HollowVine hasn't coalesced into a single archetype yet, and there may just not be a clear correct build (which I personally find an exciting place to be).
With the remainder of the deck (and there's a lot of cards left), people have tried a lot of different configurations. You'll often see additional cards that take advantage of the graveyard, pushing the value of Bazaar - cards like Bloodghast, Bridge from Below, and Hogaak, Arisen Necropolis. Bridge+Hogaak form the cornerpiece of the Modern format's HollowVine deck, and there are plenty of articles written about the synergy there.
All lists run some further form of disruption, but it varies a lot between builds. HollowVine doesn't act like a pure lock or control deck, but uses disruption as a tempo play to keep the opponent one or two turns off balance while a 4/x quickly finishes them off.
A Workshop variant runs Mishra's Workshop to consistently play Sphere of Resistance effects, and a Workshop can turn otherwise weak Vengevine-triggers into real threats, with cards like Stonecoil Wurm and Walking Ballista
Lists that run more graveyard centric cards might run a pitch-counter suite, making those lists very similar to Dredge.
Myself, I've tested several variants I haven't seen published elsewhere, including a Skullclamp-centric list with lots of Gaea's Cradle, and an Eldrazi list leveraging Ancient Tomb/Sphere of Resistance and the 0-cost Vine-triggering Endless One.
The last time I attended a Team Serious Invitational, I won it with Death Survives: Death Shadow Survival. I plan on winning this time with an equally absurd list.
Don't miss @cutlex , who is playing a list I designed for him that he hasn't looked at yet. And @cleverpseudonym who is still deciding whether or not he wants to play a different list I designed for him that he hasn't looked yet.
I predict a Brass Man deck wins and I get a card restricted.
My deck is going to lead to some very short games so I'll probably have lots of time to try and sneak on camera.
Hope to see you there.
The Team Serious Invitational is back and it's worth watching, goddamnit. 35ish inebriated planeswalkers will converge on Columbus, OH tomorrow with the most ridiculous brews they can muster, and you get to see it all. Coverage will be hosted by the legendary Moes cousins @GrandpaBelcher and @GeoffMoesDoesn'tEvenHaveATMDAccountYouAsshole.
See the action unfold in real time tomorrow, February 8th, coverage starting at ... I don't know probably 1:00PM EST? I mean stop rushing us already.
Just saw this card now and I love it. Nihil Spellbomb is my favorite grave hate spell, and was a 1-of in any non-pure-combo black deck I've played for years. I literally yesterday was working on a Trinket Mage deck thinking "this list would be better as RUG over BUG, but I really want to run Nihil Spellbomb. This will be good in small numbers for a wide spread of archetypes. I get that this isn't particularly as sexy as Breach, but I suspect in the long run this is the Theros card that will see the most play and win the most games.
6th December: Start around 12:30 am CET Replay Artists Interviews
6th December: Start around 15 am CET Vintage All Stars and Alpha 40
7th December: Start around 11am CET Modern Main Event
7th December: Start around 12am CET Vintage Main Event
8th December: Start around 11am CET Legacy Main Event
Wanted to let people know that we're going to be doing live coverage of the Vintage event here, and I flew all the way to Italy to do it!
I'll be streaming with with my Italian cohost, Niccolo Covoni (@CovoniNiccolo on twitter)
the event will be streamed at https://www.twitch.tv/nebraskaswar_mtg
It's a full weekend, multi-format EW style event. The exact streaming schedule isn't completely fixed, but the current plan is the following:
tomorrow, Friday the 6th, 11am CET (5am ET) we'll be streaming Pioneer, Alpha 40, and Vintage All Stars.
Saturday the 7th, 11am CET, we'll be streaming matches from the main Vintage and Modern events (Vintage starts at noon)
Sunday the 8th, 11am CET, we'll stream the the Legacy main event.
The original plan was to stream more Modern than Vintage, but we talked the TO into upping the Vintage content if we promoted the event, so let's try and get some eyes on this and show them some Vintage love!
I think that encapsulates the unhappiness perception. Vintage frequently doesn't feel like the vintage we're used to playing.
I agree entirely, but don't forget that "the vintage we're used to playing" is pretty ambiguous. I got into the format around 17 years ago, and back then there were plenty of players who were upset that their 5-color Keeper control decks couldn't keep pace with the bleeding-edge new style of play brought about by Fetchlands and Quirion Dryad. The game is constantly changing year over year, and almost by definition you're going to love the version of the Vintage that people played when you first became passionate about it (because if you didn't love it, you never would have gotten hooked). So almost by definition, as it changes you're going to run into patches where you enjoy it less than you used to. People tend to interpret this as a steady decline from some golden age, but it seems more like a sampling problem to me.
I'm not sure it is ok for you to be the arbiter of what is universally fun or unfun in any circumstance, as it is by definition a subjective judgement, including it being a neutral one.
I think we're in agreement here. That was entirely my point. Brainstorm is a card that makes the game more fun for me, and less fun for you. Therefore we can't just blanket state that it's fun or unfun, because that's subjective. I wasn't trying to make the claim that the card is fun-neutral. I certainly don't believe that I can arbitrate which cards are universally fun, my position is that nobody can do that, that different people like different games and it's impossible for any card to be universally fun or unfun.
Maybe my post needed more context. Even though the WotC explanation for the Narset restriction was "fast mana and draw spells", there have been several high profile comments in high visibility places about Narset being fun police. What comes first to mind is LSV's tweet that Narset stops him from doing the things he enjoys in Vintage. Make no mistake, of the people involved in the B&R decision process, more of them follow LSV on Twitter than have accounts on TMD. The idea that Narset stops people from having fun doing "Vintagey" things is one of the reasons why it was restricted. It is very probably not the only reason, but it's the one I was reacting to.
Anyway, my point is that judging anything from the perspective of fun is not a good metric.
That's trouble, because I think you make some good points there, and I strongly believe that making policy decisions based on fun has some real problems. Some cases seem clear cut, but others get vague very quickly, and I think it ultimately always comes down to picking specific groups of players to exclude, whether the deciding body is conscious of it or not.
But on the other hand, it's also sort of the only thing that matters. Because more easily measurable metrics like card diversity, strategic diversity, metagame penetration, win rate, game length, decisions per game, deck cost, etc ... these are all just proxies for the only question that matters: Do I want to spend my afternoon playing Vintage, or have a cup of coffee?
We know that basing policy decisions on fun doesn't work, but at the same time, we know that the only way to make policy decisions is to base them on fun, if only indirectly. C'est Absurde!
The last few posts here have gotten me thinking. At least to an outsider, it does sort of look like the format is circling around itself, eating its own tail maybe. But I think more precisely this is a back-and-forth between two or more separate factions.
I think, for the most part, there are players who want certain strategies hated out, and those are not the same players who want those hate cards restricted. (And for any given player, they probably lie in a different camp regarding each card/strategy etc). You have a rotating group of vocally angry players as the metagame moves month to month. Sometimes it's a near-consensus, and sometimes it's just a vocal minority, but at the scale of players we're talking about, to anyone outside the community (read: WotC) it just looks like Vintage players are always unhappy.
If Narset was bad specifically because it stops people from playing fun cards like Preordain, then you could restrict it. But if cards like Preordain are fun and you want to let people play more of them, you could also just unrestrict Brainstorm instead.
But of course, Brainstorm isn't a fun card. Neither is it an unfun card. Brainstorm is a card that some players enjoy and some players don't. There's no cohesive view of which sorts of cards and decks and play patterns are considered vintage-appropriate (in the way that Modern has a more clear vision), and therefore all B&R decisions end up being reactive, which can often make things self-contradictory.
Please don't read too much into this as an opinion on Narset specifically ... the same could be said about Chalice of the Void and Lotus Petal, Mental Misstep and Ancestral Recall, Gush and Thorn of Amethyst.
The completely reactive approach we have isn't necessarily the worst possible approach, it may even be the best approach available, given what WotC has to work with, but certainly isn't without its flaws.
This is super cool, I don't feel like I have enough Dredge expertise to comment on the results, but I love people taking vastly different approaches to to analyzing the game and seeing how they shake out.
Are there any decisions/conclusions you came to from running simulations that were counter to your assumptions going in? If you end up running a list you built with this method, I'd love to hear how it worked out for you!
oops! the old thread for this post got displaced so I'm recreating it - Brass Man
Fun episode as always! Looks like it was recorded right before Mystic Sanctuary was spoiled which is why they didn't mention it.
So far personally this has felt like a pretty nice set for Vintage. Wishclaw is playable, but not as scary as I personally feared, Sanctuary and Stonecoil both seem solid without being problematic. A nice balance was struck here, I think.
0:16:25: Modern Horizons Report Card
0:59:00: Throne of Eldraine Mechanics
1:04:12: Wishclaw Talisman
1:46:50: Once Upon a Time
2:01:00: Mystical Dispute
2:06:10: Shimmer Dragon
2:10:10: Witch’s Vengeance
2:20:00: Questing Beast
2:27:20: Emry, Lurker of the Loch
2:34:51: Deafening Silence
3:22:55: Stonecoil Serpent
3:34:47: Robber of the Rich
Total runtime: 3:50:50
– Throne of Eldraine visual preview