This card certainly seems like it could fit the bill. Some Survival variants have eschewed blue and permission for more permanent and discard-based disruption and this card plays well with that. In many cases, you end up hellbent after activating Bazaar multiple times and then Anje's Ravager is just an Ancestral Recall in the attack step (turning on Bazaar again). I like it over Squee, but then I've always hated Squee.
FYI, I played a Teferi Jeskai list to the top 8 of the most recent challenge and Teferi was great for me all day. I'm not sold on the red portion of the deck and the overall decline in Dack in the metagame makes me question if this was an isolated incident. There were my two copies and the three copies in the 29th place list. That's it. Last week there were 6 copies in two decks. They finished 30th and 31st. I think there are many reasons for that, but they are outside the topic of the discussion. The point is without Dack, you lose one of the main reasons to play Jeskai and options such as this look much better.
And for the record my tournament was a fun experience of:
Dredge x4, Survival, Red Hate (TMWA), and Karn Forge.
@wfain The delve spells were cut from a later version. He was trying to eschew removal for a more threat dense approach, leaning on cards like Teferi and Tarmogoyf to provide pseudoremoval (which is something Brian Kelly favors with cards like Vraska, Golgari Queen). Snapcasters are great but there are likely many ways to build Teferi decks. This is just what happened to be published.
I meant to use the 5-0 list as evidence that the core of the deck is solid and you are on to something powerful. Keep up the good work and brewing
@wfain Lance's (@vaughnbros) approach has been to play more Forces to ensure you get the ability to 3 mana. The additional teferis and narsets help make the Forces live as well as ensure you have an impact play.
Edit: Linking because I think the deck has a lot of merit. I've played Teferi's in other lists and have found him very strong.
@desolutionist The problem with hypotheticals is that you can always make them in such a way as to prove your position. It is a form of selection bias. How many new cards are discussed where people only focus on the best-case or worst-case scenarios?
Also, every card has limitations. You are comparing Thoughtseize to a conditional counterspell, so I'm really not sure what your point is. My point is that Teferi mitigates the downside of drawing Thoughtseize late as you can use bounce+TS as a Vindicate and the instant speed to steal draws if there isn't a permanent to hit. It turns Thoughtseize into a very good card (it's a fine card without the synergy with Teferi).
If you only want to discuss some arbitrary value of Thoughtseize in a vacuum without the other 71-74 cards that surround it, well I've never had interest in those discussions and certainly not in threads dedicated to decks...
@wfain Have you considered adding in a 3rd Teferi? I've found the card to be good enough that I've wanted three in most of my lists.
@desolutionist Or the opponent plays a Deathrite Shaman or Foundry Inspector and you've wasted your mana. Or draws a Misstep off the top for your Spell Pierce. Constructing hypothetical situations and ignoring context are both poor ways of evaluating cards.
Teferi mitigates a lot of issues with discard and the bounce ability is naturally synergistic, giving Thoughtseize much more versatility than it typically has. Do we have to do comparisons? What's a good instant speed discard spell? A Vindicate that doesn't hit planeswalkers or lands? Bah, I hate comparisons... Just play good cards that have good interactions in your deck. Thoughtseize clearly does. It honestly seems fine in any UWBx Teferi deck if you can make the mana work.
@ebgmtg I thought the Dredge matchup was very favorable for Forge as you could slow Dredge down with hate and find a way to land your bombs. You could even come back from behind with the combo or Karn, winning from nowhere, or float a bomb with Top and sculpt a win that way as sometimes the permission and dredges don't line up or your hate buys you enough time. Grid is obviously insane as you force them to have removal spell into more removal spells and the chances of that aren't that incredibly high. You are also a threat to win game one which is not true for every deck. I don't think manaless Dredge can effectively combat Forge without branching into mana. The spells are unique and there aren't really that many options. MBT does help but not against Grid and players who know you have it can play around it.
@wfain As the caboose of "Team Batman Villians" featuring Vasu (Mr. Freeze), Brian Kelly (The Joker), and me (The Riddler), I am aware of the cards impact. I just wasn't sure of the adaptation since the lists from the Vintage Challenge were overwhelmingly the Sphere variant. The Sphere variant is a huge underdog to the combo variant as you lack the explosiveness and your Spheres hurt your own Forges and Karns. I would expect a pretty quick transition to the Grids. Pretty insane that it's happened so quickly. Also, 8 Forge decks...sorry @ebgmtg. What percentage of the games were interesting? Did any strategies or approaches help?
If people are curious, my deck was on camera in round 2 at the NYSE. I wasn't very motivated for the event and I'm still not very motivated for Vintage, but the deck does a lot of cool things and will probably be my project in Vintage as I dabble in other formats. The feature match is below.
The interaction that brought a judge call involved Basking Rootwalla cast into Teferi (or not cast). The card states that if the card is not cast, it should be put into the graveyard. My opponent unfortunately had his copies of Rootwalla signed at that line of the reminder text. We called a judge to answer the interaction and it was ruled that the Rootwalla would stay in exile. I think this was a mistake but judges are also humans too. I made mistakes as well as I mistook an Ancestral for Riddlesmith activations and I shuffled an Eons into my deck at the end of game 1 (thinking that I had accidentally put it in exile instead). I was trying to play fast while also demonstrating the interactions and combos the deck is capable of.
For those curious, this thread is very informative: https://twitter.com/TheMaverickGal/status/1131335618418663427
Kendra Smith is also signal boosting the current issue in Vintage with Magic Online and many of the big venders tagged, so hopefully that helps with swift action.
Why would you want to play this card over the plethora of alternatives that are all more broken and more practical?
What does this card enable that you couldn't do before that is better than what the current combo decks are doing?
I have a hard time buying that you end up ahead vs a control deck by putting 6 mana into this card (which can be pyroblasted or flusterstormed) to get it countered and recasting it on the following turn. Or even that this is a frequent enough occurrence to be reliable.
I tried to cover that but allow me to expand on the point more. Cards that have abilities from graveyards or from being discarded turn a negative into a positive and have the potential for considerable abuse. The Dredge mechanic, Hogaak, Arclight Phoenix, Vengevine, Cabal Therapy... there are so many examples from Vintage and other formats, past and present. It is the same quality that makes Echo contextually better than Timetwister and every other Draw 7.
Yeah, Looting is going deeper than I would go and setting yourself up to lose to such cards. I don’t think I’ve lost to Leyline yet. You either bounce it with Teferi or chain or just discard your Echoes while the opponent is down a card. Interesting approach though.
Has anyone played with this card since it’s release?
I have found it to be quite powerful. The thing that gets lost is that casting a card from your graveyard is essentially card advantage depending on how you got it there. This allows you to win battles of attrition against other Blue decks and provides a significant advantage over Wheel, Windfall, etc. You can also hardcast and the card will remain in you graveyard to flashback, which is a not infrequent scenario that has felt positively absurd when it occurs.
As far as breaking the symmetry, their are many ways, such as Lavinia, Grid, Narset, Teferi, Notion Thief. Enablers include Dack, Intuition, JVP, Entomb, Tutors + LED, but my current favorite is Riddlesmith by a considerable margin. I will be playing a Riddlesmith Combo deck at the NYSE and look forward to describing the deck’s interactions and intricacies but simply imagine the number of artifacts a storm deck casts after resolving a draw 7. Then add more draw 7’s and you reach a point where you are literally (and yes, actual literally) drawing over a hundred cards in your combo turn before casting multiple time walks and maybe a Mentor. It’s pretty glorious.
I don’t believe I have found an optimal build but I do think after the initial hype that this card has fallen by the wayside. Is that the case?