I agree about Gush vs. PO. But Wizards will look pretty silly unrestricting Gush again...
But Brainstorm will never be unrestricted. As you say, decks are digging for combo pieces. Letting PO dig even harder and faster won't exactly diversify the field!
Thanks for the feedback. I readily admit that I played only 15 or 20 matches.
(1) Yeah my first inclination was to swap one or two loams for one or two more lands maindeck.
(2) Fair enough. Maybe a better way to put it is that I just never felt like I had enough creatures on board, in particular given that this deck wants to dread return moreso than a stock dredge list (hence the 3 maindeck vs. usual 2). You get stuck with a Narco in hand, not a ton of lands to trigger Bloodghast, etc. Just always felt like a struggle to get to 3 creatures on board. Then when you did dread return, you were all in, since it basically wiped your board (except maybe an amalgam coming back).
(3) Point take on not having to rely on bridge. But given that this deck is slower than stock dredge (though maybe you disagree there), I really want some grave hate to slow the opponent down.
(4) On this I guess I would need to fundamentally shift how I think about dredge. Always felt like I needed to maximize game 1 since games 2 and 3 can be so tough. What did you cut for more grudges?
It is certainly a cool take on dredge. I gave this a shot on modo a couple months ago and noticed a few things:
(1) Not nearly enough lands maindeck to make 4 loams castable or worthwhile. Postboard you jam all those lands in and sure.
(2) No bridges made getting enough dudes to dread return (while also trying to flashback therapy) very difficult. No way you're ever turn 2 Griselbranding here.
(3) The mirror match is very unfavorable, especially if they're running leylines (or 4 ravenous traps, which I actually ran into online a couple times!)
(4) Yes, grudge is good against PO and Shops, but giving either of these decks extra time is asking for trouble. Shops can kill you so fast these days. Giving up the explosive plays from dredge is worse than being able to grudge their dudes game 1.
A single Scavenging Ooze (plus maybe another in the board) for that Snapcaster/JVP/Yawg Will/Dredge hate. The card is a lot worse than it used to be back when BUG Fish was good, as a vanilla beater was a nice thing to have then (not so much now). Still, the incidental life gain can also occasionally squeeze out another turn you might not otherwise have.
@socialite said in JANUARY 9, 2017 BANNED AND RESTRICTED ANNOUNCEMENT POLL:
I do and this sort of dynamic is why I prefer the current state of affairs to prior generations of this format. Ultimately I can't help but feel as though a lot of these doors are closed due to the intrinsic power level of the format as a whole. It's hard to find merit when most of what you can realistically do in this format is dictated by Bazaar of Baghdad and Mishra's Workshop.
Why not just play legacy then? No snark intended here.
So many blue decks seems to on a "one for one" plan against Shops lately - a swords on a dude, a fragmentize on a thorn, that sort of thing. So if they stumble for one turn it's all over and they get overwhelmed with resistors/wastelands. No one is casting Hurkyl's or Ancient Grudges. I think that's potentially one reason that Landstill with bombs like Energy Flux did so well (other issues notwithstanding).
Regarding Ancient Tomb - it's played as sideboard tech in Storm, in decks like Two-Card Monte, Blue Moon, etc. That restriction would punish a lot of the fringe/unique decks in the format. I know you know all this, but it feels like the wrong target (assuming anything needs to be targeted).
More generally, as someone who started playing vintage in 2012 - when Forgemaster Shops was really ramping up in popularity - I am still just baffled as to how Workshop decks continue to make up more and more of the top tables (and draw more and more ire) compared to the 4 Lodestone/4 Chalice days. Sure, Forgemaster Shops took down some tournaments, but it never seemed to be overwhelmingly dominant or win the really big ones. Blue still reigned supreme. And Blue decks have only gotten more toys since - Delve spells, unrestricted Thirst/Gifts, Dack.
Is it just that with MTGO people realized how powerful Workshops + spheres are? And so more people are now playing them? Or is TKS just THAT powerful? Was Shops underplayed before 2015? I lost so many games to Bug Fish and Confidant Control while playing spheres + Lodestone + Chalice in 2012 and 2013. What went wrong since?
Thanks for the list. The one thing that stands out to me is the Stage/Depths combo. I used to play a junk deck in legacy that tried to jam this combo. It was difficult even then with four Knights. Have you actually won a game with the combo? I would just fear dead cards with no filtering or anything.
I think the time is right for Dredge to sneak in a win. It's flying under the radar right now, which is always when it's at its most dangerous. There's not much combo (it seems like no one plays DPS offline), there's lots of Shops, and the format just feels slow in general. If a good Dredge pilot makes it through the early rounds unscathed by Belcher or one of these glass canon Paradoxical Outcome decks, I think they'll have a great shot. Sideboards at the top tables, based on EE5, will look like:
2 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ravenous Trap
That's pretty smooth sailing.
The analogy between Gush and Workshops isn't a bad one; I think everyone knows what you're getting at. Just a couple things, though:
- Gush is a bigger part of the meta than Workshops (they're both huge parts obviously, but still) and
- People can play other blue decks if Gush goes away. The same can't be said about brown decks if Workshops goes away.
I know 2. gets at your point about Pillars, but I don't think any shops players are going to pretend that they're being protective of the card Workshops purely out of wanting to keep the meta "balanced" or "for the good of the game" or whatever. We all want to keep our pet deck. And having to go from shops to, I dunno, hatebears or some other prison-ish deck would be much more painful than a Gush player being forced to switch to a big blue or Thoughtcast deck. Anyway, that's how I feel about it.
@Evoclipse Ah ok, yeah I was thinking about the lists that were running two or three ancient tombs in the board. But yeah, I completely agree that storm always seems one land/mana away from ending things. Playing Orrery essentially forgoes any lock piece for the turn AND gives storm the chance to make an additional land drop. Too scary.
@BazaarOfBaghdad I don't play storm, just against it. But the stock lists run 16 or 17 post board, so basically as many as I'm running in TKS shops.
All I know is that the thing I hate most is watching storm consistently make land drops under spheres while I'm not playing threats (and Orrery is not a threat itself).