Old school is more my pace these days. I prefer the less competitive approach, more stylistic and nostalgic cards, and the idea that I don’t have to continuously play test new cards. There are already so many new cards that I haven’t even read.
There are not many convenient players For old school but that actually works well! I can focus all of my free time on family and business. And those events that do come up a couple times a year feel more precious.
I don’t really feel the competitive desire to even attempt vintage lately. I tried out Starcraft 2, and I was terrible at it. I was trying to at least be good in some capacity, but if I made some small error at the beginning the game was over. To play Vintage online, I feel like I have to be like that Starcraft player and never make a mistake and continuously practice. It’s a huge time investment for what feels like a coin flip in a lot of situations.
That’s my take on it as well. I’ve spent years thinking the game would revert back to what I enjoyed or that maybe I would find the right deck to catalyze a change, but when I take a step back and realize I’m playing with restricted cards like Mental Misstep and Gitaxian Probe against cards like Oko and Narset and they just keep printing newer and better cards it makes me rethink what I’m getting out of it.
The last match of Vintage I’ve ever played was against Dredge. Shortly into game 1 I just conceded the match because it just felt so scripted. I just flat out didn’t want to play.
Now when I observe Vintage games involving one person sitting idle while they other is chaining Outcomes together, it just reinforces my beliefs. I believe Outcome is probably an exciting deck for a Vintage newcomer, but there are only so many ways it can play out. There’s no “end game” so to speak. Sure you can “micro” cards like Null Rod against PO or Tormod’s against Breach and say “look these strategies are beatable”; but it’s not even about having the capacity to beat oppressive strategies, it’s about having the capacity for fun.
There’s nothing wrong with the game but I have trouble with finding fun with it right now. I’m glad I can at least vent about it.
I logged into MTGO today. I updated the client and sold a couple cards to make sure I have 30 tix to play in the challenge. I was about to load Shockwave's UR Landstill but I caught myself in the act. Good thing too, I would have set myself up for a miserable day and waste a lot of time in the process. Something within me wants to play Vintage. My heart says yes but my brain says no. My fiance would have been upset with me if she saw the client window open. I'm glad I caught myself. There's just some alluring aspect, as if there is a chance the games will in someway be enjoyable, but I know they won't. I know it will just end in misery and my life would be worse. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.
Why not just play a few of these in your Doomsday decks? Maybe even 4? It’s a fine spell on its own.
Against Dredge, Shops, and DPS a resolved Doomsday is GG. Thassa makes the win slightly less conditional. (it opens up a couple of rare situations in which you wouldn’t be able to win with Lab Man) Playing more Thassa doesn’t really accomplish anything. It would be like playing 4 Tendrils in a DPS deck or 4 Blightsteel in a Tinker deck.
Doomsday struggles against decks like BUG and Xerox, which is why it’s really missing 4 Gush. You can’t play good enough card advantage spells to keep up with Planeswalkers. By using Planeswalkers or something like Arcanist to play the card advantage game, you’re having to sacrifice Doomsday components and go back to losing to Dredge/DPS/Shops for not much improvement against Xerox. Playing 4 Thassa in this situation would actually make you worse against all decks since it’s just a 1/3 with a scry ability.
By playing Doomsday you’re not playing the game WotC wants you to play and you’re bound to lose to the power creeped cards that aren’t applicable to your strategy.
Doomsday had been a deck that was good for its ability to battle toe to toe with other tier 1 blue decks. It just doesn’t have the draw power anymore to keep up. You can start with Ritual Necro or Ancestral, but the odds aren’t in favor. I’ve played Doomsday in numerous online and paper (NYSE) events in 2019. It feels like it has potential but it’s an uphill battle.
I think if Vintage remained strictly a paper format like Old School, it would have continued to feel special. We can only hope that the format gets lost in the transition to Arena. It doesn't solve the other issues such as a critical mass of free counterspells, planeswalkers, and overpowered hatebears but it might be the best thing possible for Vintage moving forward.
I’m more excited about picking up a beta Icy Manipulator than I am for any possible new border card. The new cards are just too ugly on so many levels.
It’s not even the Planeswalkers as much as it is needing to relearn the format every 3 months and/or having to sit still while the opponent takes a 20 minute PO turn. WotC doesn’t know how to make cards anymore.
I played old school yesterday and had a blast. I lost to Armageddon and couldn’t have been more content.
I observed people playing Dredge vs. PO and I guess I just don’t see the draw to that kind of format. When I originally discovered Vintage it was cool to see Stax vs. Control Slaver. Now it’s PO vs. Dredge. Where’s the incentive to be part of that?
Yes I’ve played it a lot recently. I usually have gone 5-2 with it in the challenges. It’s great against decks like DPS and Dredge but not good against BUG due to lack of card advantage to keep up with whatever the opponent is doing. It needs 4 Gush.
Otherwise this style of deck is just dead since Hasbro just wants it to be a planeswalker game.
Rip real magic
Honestly I don’t see myself playing vintage for my own pleasure ever again unless there are drastic changes made. There are a lot more interesting games out there that deserve some love instead of this crap. Everything that once enticed me to play is now gone.
I enjoyed listening to this but I feel like you guys didn't give enough analysis to the Workshop deck. Maybe perhaps it is because you haven't played with or against the deck, but the main purpose for Golos (a Legendary creature) is to act as an engine with Karakas. Replaying Golos every turn is the main mode of this deck.
Nick, I wouldn’t make the smaller event but would definitely try to make it to a NYSE.
That said, you shouldn’t run another NYSE. If it wasn’t for the generosity of the top 8 you would have taken a big loss.
And that’s not your fault. The prices are just too insane.
The last vintage format playoff is scheduled for Saturday December 7 @ 10AM (Pacific). This is the last chance to qualify for the main event (January 11). There have already been quite a few people who have qualified so there is a good chance invitations will be passed down through the top 16 like last time.
If the goal is to just restrict cards when things become stagnant, I think it would be really cool if they just introduced a rotating/seasonal banlist. Then it would be less science and more exposure to new play experiences with older cards.
You could have your baseline P9 cards as always legal and always restricted. And then have a rotating ban list concerning the modern cards.
If you’re going to play the same DPS deck for 6 months, then it’s more worth it to just own the cards sure.
But if you want to play a different deck every week, experiment with new cards or ideas then
Manatraders is only $35 a month flat for renting up to $350 value of cards (which all Vintage decks tend to be under) and you have access to any new printings. You essentially have a boundless collection for $35 a month and don’t have to worry about the program being deleted.
Is buying $40 digital “Okos” whenever a new set comes out - only to see its value go to practically nothing in a short while - wasting money?
The trend for all mtgo cards is down. That’s just a fact. Mox Emerald is what, $2? It used to be over $100. Pernicious Deed used to be over $100, now it’s a couple cents. There’s no investment here, you’re giving money away no matter what.
@trius it’s also good against survival and Oath. (Bridge/Tabernacle and Karakas). The main targets in Oath are Griselbrand and Niv Mizzit so Oath has little impact vs Karakas sometimes if you also have some other cards to go along with it. They could bring in Blazing Archon, but they’ll never trigger Oath if you have Leyline of Sanctity.
Keep in mind the Karakas + Golos combo. It’s built in late game card advantage.
I think part of the idea behind one Smokestack, one Uba Mask, etc is that through Golos and Inventors Fair you can theoretically tutor for whatever lock piece you need. I chose to just go more straight forward because that flexibility idea is kind of like wishful thinking. Most games are decided on turn one. Sphere, Chalice, Golos is probably wishful thinking as well. Also any true lockdown prison deck is going to be soft against Oko. You really need some Stonecoil behind your Revokers.
I started with Deunan’s list and went 3-2 in league. Made some tweaks and then went 5-0. Made some more tweaks and then went 4-2 in the challenge, barely missing the top8, losing to my friend for the win and in.
I went the opposite direction, cutting Smokestack ultimately. You’ll notice in my 5-0 list I had Bazaar and Uba Mask, but they’re just not necessary. I upgraded Bottled Cloister to Coercive Portal, but it’s also an effect that is just not necessary. I just want a strong opening and Golos is enough to make the game out of reach for the opponent; Smokestack or card draw is just a slow effect that doesn’t really matter in a lot of games. It’s all about leading the game with a Sphere or something and following it up with a Golos. Ultimately I removed the ineffective 1-ofs for the very effective Stonecoil Serpents in the challenge. I think that was a pretty good move given the dominance of Oko. Ensnaring Bridge continues to be clutch, so running two of those feels pretty good against Survival and Dredge as well.
I also boarded 4 Leyline of Sanctity which felt pretty smart in the Oath meta.
Defense Grid is very effective at pushing through threats like Golos as well as preventing Hurkyls/Force of Vigor.