Oh, and here it is in all its glory (as a portuguese speaker I can confirm the text is exactly that of the OP)
@khahan In part I agree, but keep in mind that in a prison list, 2 of those 4 abilites are worthless.
"Spells you cast cost 1 less to cast" doesn't REALLY matter because you're already casting your most expensive spell through spheres anyway.
"Creatures you control get +1/+1" hardly matters in a prison shell.
Shutting down PWs (Fayden specially) and drawing cards is probably enough though. One of the reasons Coercive Portal is bad against control is because it can easily be stolen and ruin your game completely.
It's also important to note that you only get one treasure per combat damage step, no matter how many creatures you have attacking. Ignoring first strike, double strike, or similar shenanigans, you'll only get one a turn. It's also a must-transform, so you can't have one of these going for its front side past the five artifact limit.
Also, you're wrong. Double Strike does get you 2 treasures. ;)
@chubbyrain I don't remember saying anything against competitive balance, though. So I agree with everything you say. Multiplayer Commander should be managed towards fun and casual play. Vintage should be balanced towards competitive play.
What I disagree, and probably always will, is that we should manage the format so a few fringe strategies can be played. I stated this before (in this topic or another) on how Duel Commander (a competitive format) tried to do this and failed miserably. I mean, they got what they wanted (they made non-disruptive aggro a thing in the format) but that drove away most players that liked the format exactly because of the way it played.
For me, there's a reason Vintage is so cool and that's because it's very different from the midrange grindfest Magic has become everywhere else. So I strongly disagree with opinions from people that play Vintage and think it's "busted" because they correlate it to other formats and notice a discrepancy in play style. It's supposed to be like that. So I disagree with banning/restricting anything to follow that project.
We disagree on the reading on Workshop data, which I think would be more relevant to deal talk about, for sure. I don't think a 60% winrate is that bad.
Anyway, I'm drunk because my team just won the local soccer championship so sorry if I'm not talking reasonably enough.
@joshuabrooks The smaller the banlist, the better, mainly because a big Restricted List falls in either 2 categories: it's either restricting cards that shouldn't be restricted (because no one's using them in good decks anyway); or it moves the format towards 60-card Highlander, which is bad for playability.
I think that even if we discuss DCI's restriction policy over the last years, their UNrestriction policy has been top notch. For example, why would you keep Gifts restricted when it does nothing to the meta other than allowing us to play the awesome card it is?
A balanced metagame is one in which no deck maintains a greater than 50% match win rate over a sustained period of time.
Hum, this is interesting because I've been thinking about this lately. Do you really think a deck over 50% is a problem? Who would choose a deck with known less than 50% against the field to play with? I guess this is why we read Shops data differently. You think Shops being over 50% is a problem; I think it being 60% is OK and healthy. Care to say more on why more than 50% is an issue?
We talk about how Vintage isn't the insane, broken format that people often cite as a reason to not play it. How much is due to that 22% chance that the opponent has Misstep in their hand? Interactivity vs diversity...I'd pick interactivity here. That's just me though.
I made the same comment as you without reading your comment first. Guess we don't disagree on everything then :)
I'd be curious to know of those who abhor Misstep vs. those that believe its a positive influence on Vintage deck building and game play how many on each side started playing before New Phyrexia or after. I get the sense a sub-segment of players have never started building a deck without 4 force, 3-4 misstep and the delve spells. This would certainly bring a different perspective, it's a safety net and a play pattern certain players have never played without.
I've been playing since 95, so I don't think this argument has any kind of substance.
I just don't get how Misstep wars are different from Mana Drain wars back then. You have a counter, they have a counter. The end. If Misstep didn't have phyrexian mana it would be just bad, because the main importance it has is to add more cards so you can interact turn 0. That's the thing: Misstep makes the format MORE interactive, since now you have 7-8 spells that can interact with your opponent turn 0.
I don't think you remember this correctly, but Vintage games could be much more lopsided than they're now. At least that's my take on it. Vintage slowed down and got way more interactive in the last... 6 years or so? I don't know, I stopped playing for a while in 2009. But right now if feels very interactive and for me it's because of Misstep. FoW was always a very important card in Vintage and now you don't have to mulligan aggressively for FoW in certain matchups. A FoWless hand would be IMPOSSIBLE to keep vs combo. Nowadays you can keep a hand with 1-2 Missteps as protection on the draw without much hassle - and your opponent needs to play accordingly, so it's not just FoW or Bust anymore, it's much more strategically deep than that.
Also Misdirection doesn't substitute Misstep not in a million years, because it's unable to deal with a lot the format is doing right now, and is just so much worse than Flusterstorm in Blue x Blue counter wars that's not funny. Flusterstorm made Misdirection obsolete, not Misstep.
@brianpk80 Although I disagree with the great majority of those restrictions, I find it interesting that someone is giving thought to a different approach to the banlist. I'm still (and probably will always be) on the "restrict only if it's dominant" camp, but I wonder how the format would be if what you say was implemented.
The only thing I agree is that every set that gets released gets us closer to having a banned list in the format again.
@nedleeds Either Misstep stops 1-ofs from being considered during deckbuilding OR it isn't that game-warping. You need to choose one.
You can't say Misstep warps the whole metagame around it and then also say that 1 mana cards weren't that important to the metagame in the same argument.
I've said this several times, but I think Misstep makes specially Ancestral Recall harder to cast and that's actually huge and good for the format. That it slows down a bunch of other stuff helps too. Dark Ritual, Vault, Sol Ring, Deathrite, Thoughtseizes, everything you are naming, for me are important cards to be slowed down and help A LOT the format to not be just a coin flip. A resolved turn 1 Thoughtseize may mean you're dead that very turn. If you Misstep it, your opponent will NOT throw his whole hand on the chance you don't have FoW.
Also, we all know Misstep got to the 3,6 range when Chalice was restricted and everyone started playing a bunch of 1 mana spells again. Chalice did make people change deckbuilding. Misstep doesn't because it can combat itself so it's just another counterwar.
I for one think the format got faster over the years and the overall CMC of cards got way lower. So having 7-8 cards that interact with the opponent when on the draw (4 FoWs, 3-4 Missteps) is a huge benefit to the format. Imo if we got rid of misstep the coin flip would be much more important because it would reduce greatly what the opponent could do turn 1 to stop you on the draw.
@smmenen According to MTGTOP8 it's 61% of the Top 8 decks. It loses only to Lotus, Moxen, Strip Mine and FoW (and ties with Ancestral Recall).
EDIT: Actually Ancestral and Misstep fare at 60,5% with Misstep averaging 3,4 copies per deck.
EDIT 2: in the Top 20 Most Played Cards, the only 3 unrestricted cards are FoW, Misstep and Wasteland.
I found force of will when on an empty hand and 4 mana (opponent also in topdeck mode).
Don't know the exact game state nor the opponent, as this may change everything. But in this scenario isn't it just way better to dump the FoW and flip to Azcanta to start drawing 2 per turn?
If Probe was unrestricted I could see it being better. But I feel having to give PO, Oath or Dredge one more turn before you hit them with hate might be too late.
It can also find Moat (which is not as good as it is last year but who knows).
In Depths it can find both Solemnity and Mirage Mirror and also Depths via Expedition Map so it seems great there.
@thewhitedragon69 It does, because you're milling nonlands out of the way if needed (before flipping).
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