@serracollector trygon is bad against PO as an artifact destroying card. I usually keep it in the deck because it's a blue card to force and maybe it can be useful in games that take longer. But in games that take longer I wouldn't survival for it, I would for Leovold.
We don't use any creature solely to that purpose, and manglehorn sounds bad, a 3 mana creature that's good against PO if you survive until there with a 3 mana spell and doesn't pitch to force. Leovold is better than it against PO and almost any other deck where we would want manglehorn. It's only worse against shops, but I don't think it would give us an advantage there. If there was no Leovold maybe we could be back playing it. But even when there was no Leovold I had cut it from my deck.
@AeonSovarius In that case you're absolutely right, extra stony silences certainly improve that matchup and even if it's a good one, it's good to improve as much as you can if it's 4/7 of the people you will be facing. And yeah, I didn't mention MBT because it's not for artifacts but I run it on the SB for that matchup as well.
@aeonsovarius That sometimes is the best option. When you have counters it's usually better to try that IF you have a hand that can go off. G2 and G3 I don't value it that highly, because our opponent is spending their resources to try to stop the combo, so our midrange gameplan can be enough. G1 obviously we should kinda try to combo at all costs (unless fighting blue decks, then it's usually it or protect the king leovold).
But still, I like VV games 2 and 3. Against decks with dack I side out usually 2 hollow ones, because it can be good if we are behind and they don't land a dack but it's risky. When I'm ahead I just cycle hollow ones even when I'm able to play it. And against decks like xerox with cage, getting a 4/3 haste for 4 when they are trying to hate out your combo can be devastating. Specially if they play cage instead of leyline, then you can later on just hit them in the air.
Games 2 and 3 against hates trying to combo usually comes down to: try to survival into trygon (if the game is going to take long), and protect it. If we can ok, just try to shatter the hate and go off. Otherwise, just cast our stuff. And honestly, that's what I love about the bug version, it's well prepared to fight hateful decks.
And unless you are fighting decks where you have to have hate yourself (dredge, oath, storm), I don't oversideboard. Against PO I was siding in only 4 cards if I recall correctly.
PS.: Hurkyl's have been insane against shops when I get to draw it. Lately my matchups against PO have been about 4 dudes in each side staring at each other and the robots getting +1/+1 counters each turn that passed by. There was a game where energy flux wasn't gonna be enough, but luckily I drew hurkyl's instead. And as said before it's still a kind of a counterspell for PO, so I think it was good. Still running 1 stony (now my hate for artifacts is 1 hurkyl's, 2 flux, 1 stony).
I don't like rod that much. Feels clunky and sometimes just bad if they have some mana denial strategy and you have mox(en). I've never got to really play hurkyl's against shops yet, not that I remember. But lately there has been lots of games where we stare at each other with some board, or even just bounce their artifacts and revokers eot and activate survival in my turn ftw.
That's still kind of only theory. I haven't played against shops and drawn into it yet but I guess I will soon.
@wfain Yeah I know, I usually board it in as an outcome counterspell and I think that's usually worth it. But I just don't think that gives a reasonable edge in the game. I mean, you have to hold 2 mana up for something that may not even be the counterspell we need (they often times also have recall, dig, etc).
But you're right, it's surely to be considered. Hurkyl vs rod is like saying do you prefer getting a better % against shops or PO? If you rather have better tools against shops go with hurkyl, otherwise go with null rod.
I don't like the grafdigger's idea a lot, but if you stop to think about it, it's kind of a more vulnerable containment priest. I like containment priest to have clocks against decks where it's supposed to be a lock (we're not always gonna have priest + active survival or stuff like that against oath/dredge).
About leyline, a lot of people prefer it and I didn't like it when I tested it for some leagues. But I think it's worth to have it as a possibility, and maybe try it yourself. I had totally forgot about hurkyl's, I think it sounds great against shops, and I think that's what I needed. I'm gonna try a copy of it instead of the null rod. Maybe only 1 stony against PO is madness, but the matchup feel so good and there are so few things I want to cut for the matchup that using that a slot against shops sounds better.
Also (chuckles to self) the idea that MODO would program the new mulligan + Serum Powder interaction correctly out of the gate is low probability as well.
I don't think so, they probably have a mulligan counter or something and that doesn't move up if you use powder, which wouldn't change with the new rule.
BTW, if that happens MTG will be very different. I don't know yet how every piece will move, at least G2/G3, decks that have very key pieces (dredge, survival, to some extend shops, etc) will have more chance to find their pieces, as well as their opponents will have more chances of finding hateful keepable hands. The only thing I'm sure about is that it would change things a lot.
@aeonsovarius That's debatable. I like both cards, against dredge I don't like mulliganing to leylines where you can draw rav naturally. That makes for very weird games IMO as we can mulligan to few cards and then opp has some nature's claim and we have nothing. With rav trap they can therapy us too, but having the possibility of keeping a fast hand that can eventually draw into it seems like a better plan than mulligan to few cards.
Against the mirror leyline is better. But as I have had very positive results in the mirror and ok/bad results against dredge, I rather prioritize where I have room to improve.
Dark confidant can still be a thing, I haven't picked up the dark version because of the meta, but if we go down in combo that may be a possibility. It's a good version, but in this meta I prefer bug.
I don't think it's good to play chalice in the bug or dark version, maybe it's possible in those with lavinia but I don't have experience with that version to back me up.
@aeonsovarius I don't like Lavinia without some setup for her. Lavinia + leovold would be 4 colors, and if you play at least 2 of each, you would probably want at least access to 2 of each secondary color. I don't like the idea of having that many colors against wasteland decks (the bug survival against wasteland decks is just BUG -> no white cards come in those matchups). In BUG lavinia underperformed comparing to Leovold, so I'm using the 3rd copy of leo instead of the first of Lavinia.
About the other versions, they are just worse. I feel like people are getting there, there were lots of results with those lists mostly because there were a lot of people copying the decklist that won the asia champs or some variation of that. There is more than 1 valid version, probably even 3 or 4, but the initial thalia versions are probably the worse we have right now. Mostly now that there are tons of xerox decks out there, and that version wasn't too favored, and bug is way way favored in that matchup (the lavinia version I guess probably is too).
@wretchling If you like the thrill of competition and monetizing your game, there isn't another digital alternative. And the thing is, you will probably lose some money in the beginning, but after a while if you improve you can start getting back what you spent on the game. Also, when you are not playing for money you constantly face people that really don't want to pretend like they care for the game. And I'd rather go play anything else than online MTG with nothing on the stakes. I've done that a few times and only got bored.
I know there are some bugs, but I see very few bugs in vintage. Like, really few. I think the last one was DRS being summoning sick on my opp turn when it wasn't supposed to (happened a few times, then never again). I hear people complaining about that, I hear people swearing at the program for things they had set up to be like that, like the GY popping up when something there has become castable, but very few times really bugs.
BTW, I'm not sure where 'Wizards is not incentivized to keep on life support' came from. There's arena now, but to make all the logic for all MTG there would be a huge amount of work. And having only standard and limited, it's... limited. There are a lot of people playing MTGO that bring money to wizards and that wouldn't migrate to arena, both for not having older formats than for it's design (which for a lot of people is way worse than MTGO, but that reaches their target audience for the program).