@walking.dude I feel you man, I made a post asking why it was that people felt intrinsically bound to Wizards (possibly) flawed list and got only one person to respond.

If I lived in NY any more I'd be apt to try to work with you on it, but I am half the country away and with very little free time.

@fsecco well, I am not a judge, but I think you are correct, because 601.2b does not seem to apply to Hallow One, as far as I can tell.

@Khahan right, I was just trying to understand what he was getting at.

@John-Cox In regards to what? How it would work with Trinisphere?

@prn Unfortunately, reminder text is often not exactly correct in some cases, or can present a sort of simplified version that can sometimes be confusing (looking at you Soulbond). The language of remind text is unfortunately often neither as succinct as the Rules, nor as definite.

Relying on the comprehensive rules in all cases is always the best bet.

@nedleeds A fair point. Isn't that (possibly) all the more reason to just get away from Wizard's list in Paper though? That it simply does not serve nor reflect what is good for the Paper Game?

Well, if the B&R policy is really an issue (I honestly have no idea if it is, or isn't), at what point do we (paper players, at least) just decide to go the EDH route and come up with our own list?

Just what, besides one or two actually sanctioned events, are we stubbornly sticking to a (plausibly) flawed list? We aren't bound to Wizards in any real way. Most events aren't sanctioned already anyway, what would the harm be in trying?

At what point do we "put our money where our mouth is" and actually run real tournaments and gain real results to test our theories?

Of course, it's easy for me to say, because living in the middle of nowhere and with next to no free time I literally can't do anything. And with that, probably best to just set my status back to lurker...

@prn the issue with some of the "rulings" (which usually are not rulings at all, but rather are just examples) is that they can mislead people in some cases, since they don't explain why something is as it is.

I think a key to your understanding is to check out the comprehensive rules section that details the actual steps to "cast a spell." (601.2a-i)

When we consider that Trinisphere's effect will take place in 601.2f, that is, the step in which we are determining the spell's total cost, but Delve and Convoke apply in step 601.2g, because they are not "alternative costs" they are an alternative way to pay mana for a spell with that ability.

So, Delve and Convoke function in step 601.2g which, being after Trinisphere's effect is checked in step 601.2f, the key final sentence of that rule comes into play, "Then the resulting total cost becomes “locked in.” If effects would change the total cost after this time, they have no effect." There is no recursive check, once in step g, we never go back.

Is it intuitive? Not really, but it's just how it is.

EDIT: Here is a link to the current and correct rules document (third party ones are often outdated and wrong): http://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/MagicCompRules_20170605.txt

@prn "702.65b The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined."

"702.50b The convoke ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with convoke is determined."

The key here is that both apply after total cost is determined. Trinisphere usually functions to essentially be the final arbiter on what total cost can be at a minimum, but since both Delve and Convoke apply after total cost is determined, Trini has no power there.

Phyrixian mana, however, is a choice made before total cost and therefor is in the demesnes of Trinisphere.

@The-Atog-Lord said in I'm back....after almost 15 years:

@Brass-Man said in I'm back....after almost 15 years:

@The-Gremlin-Lord said in I'm back....after almost 15 years:

I am looking to usurp Rich as the king of the artifact sacrifice engines.

@The-Atog-Lord said in I'm back....after almost 15 years:

Functional Reprint? He doesn't even sacrifice to AtogAtog. Much worse. Barely playable.

...

you guys have heard of Arcbound Ravager right?

You mean Mister Dies-To-Shatter? Making Arcbound Ravager a Beast and not an Atog was the worst decision Wizards has made in a long time.

On par with or worse than Viziers not being Advisors?