On a totally unrelated and irrelevant note, do the new Vengevine and Noble Hierach masterpieces push this deck even further into the insurmountable #1 Most Expensive Deck slot by a longshot?

@p3temangus said in How I learned to stop complaining and enjoy the meta:

@joshuabrooks everything is relative though, and even though the price of CE/IE power is super inflated, $2000 for 5 CE moxen is substantially more affordable than $2000 just for a Sapphire. If there ends up being a "correction" in both directions, then so be it. No one believes that legalizing CE will suddenly create 2000 person vintage GPs, but maybe it means EW pulling 500+ regularly. Maybe StarCity could reliably pull 220+ for vintage events. This could also allow more smaller TOs to host EW qualifiers, which by definition must be sanctioned. I just think its a no brainer move.

I totally agree, every bit helps, and if it does occur, it will put some upward price pressure on Arabian Nights/Antiquities/Legends cards unfortunately, but yeah, every bit helps, we're in agreement there, but I don't think it's a silver bullet.

If someone wouldn't buy a $600 mox a year ago, they probably won't buy a $600 CE one today (however, there is an argument that legalizing CE might make unlimited more affordable if people trade down/in).

The only problem with the "CE will save us" mentality is that CE moxes are now approaching the level where unlimited moxes were 1-2 years ago. Their supply has been soaked up pretty quickly into the market.

It would allow a lot of Old School players that only have CE the ability to crossover, so that might be something, but I don't think that $400-$600 CE moxes helps the price or supply issue at this point.

I think the allure for many Vintage players was a stagnant metagame and the opportunity to play with cards of their youth, or familiar cards of duration.

The sets of the last 3+ years have been so powerful, that almost every other set, some Vintage stalwart is being pushed out by a newer, less familiar card. It's a changing of the guard. Just look at some of the most powerful cards in decks right now: PO, Inspector, Mentor, Hangarback, Ballista, Hollow One. That's a lot of old frame cards being replaced by new frames.

For some players, the new and exciting cards are interesting and inspiring.
For other players, seeing a card like Triskelion or Mana Drain become obsolete is upsetting. That portion of the metagame (for now) has gone to Old School.

I personally would love to see a "marinara" version of shops come back, but I think in the current environment, ravager shops is just so compact it pushes everything else out. Ravager Shop is so successful because almost every single card is playable and useful at all times. Playing Blood Moon with Workshops will often get you awkward hands (like below) and that just brings about too much inefficiency.

Sample Hand:
Mishra's Workshop
Ancient Tomb
Mountain
Blood Moon
Sphere of Resistance
etc, etc.

Great podcast, as usual gentlemen. I thoroughly enjoy it every time. You challenged the listeners to talk about a metagame that they enjoyed or thought was balanced.

I often think that people have rose-tinted glasses when remembering formats, and their preference usually comes down to when they played frequently and when they had success. I am guilty of that too.

I particularly loved the 2014/2015 format.
This is a result of playing frequently and also having personal success. That success was likely a result of workshop being underrated by the masses, but it was fun nevertheless. The reason I enjoyed the format so much was that there was (seemingly) a lot of meaningful choice within each archetype.

Workshop players could play 3-4 different version of workshop and hope to top8.

• (Martello, Terra Nova, Stax, and the fading Metalworker)

Oath players could play 3-4 different variants of Oath and hope to top8.

• (Traditional Oath, ShowOath, Salvager Oath, Burning Oath)

Combo players could play 3-4 variants of combo and hope to top8.

• (Doomsday, Charbelcher, Steel City Vault, Tendrils)

Blue Players has multiple options as well.

• (Big Blue, Delver, Blue Moon, Blightsteel, and even Fish or Standstill)

Now I suspect @Smmenen will tear this notion apart and say there were only a few viable decks (and might be right), but previous to the consolidation of Shops decks, it certainly felt like a wide open field, and people could play a deck they enjoyed, not solely what was optimal. This is an important facet for the contingent of players that are not "Spikes." I think once Ravager was "discovered" and Mentor was printed, the meta got real tight and narrow and you were taking a major penalty not playing Ravager shops or Mentor.

I personally feel this whole period was also right at the advent of MTGO playing a larger role in shaping the Vintage metagame (from 15 person paper tourney once a month to daily results of optimized decks). This too might have contributed to a narrowing of the field. Anyway, that's my perspective.

Other metagames that I enjoyed:

• 2003-2004- multiple versions of "keeper" were playable, mono black was viable, TNT was awesome, and gro-tog was still developing (memory is fuzzy on this time period).
• 1999- You mentioned hating the meta immediately pre-Urza, but I loved it. The trinity of Zoo vs MirrorU vs Necro I thought was a great battle, with viable side decks like reanimator, etc on the side. I think a meta like this would get real old in a modern environment, but I found it enjoyable then. But then Urza came along and almost killed Type 1.

[Note: Be original, leave your thoughts on Workshop at the door.]

This isn't meant to be a banned/restricted discussion or a commentary on the current metagame, but more a fun exercise in thought. There are hundreds of cards from Alpha through The Dark that have really never been powerful enough for tournament decks, and many more that are now strictly worse than modern cards.

What cards from the early sets do you think have mechanics or a power level that is not yet discovered or powerful enough in the current meta? What obscure card could you see being powerful in Vintage someday, given the right supporting cards or a different meta.

Looking for discussion on cards like Power Artifact, Black Vise, Transmute Artifact, Candelabra. Not suggestions like Mishra's Workshop or Mana Drain.

@p3temangus said in Collectors and International Edition Cards for Sanctioned Play:

@joshuabrooks My main point is because it won't hurt anything, and the proxy precedent has already been set, then why not?

I think it opens up a can of worms for them with World Championship decks then too.

This is an old argument and most people seem to be firmly on one side or the other, and wizards has never even hinted at allowing them.

I will say, the interesting aspect of CE is that it is already within striking distance of where moxes and duals were priced 1 yr ago, and that’s only with one unofficial format (old school) allowing them. I don’t see this helping make Vintage that much more accessible other than for old school players that can convert to occasional Vintage tournament play.

I would argue that if they became legal, there would be almost zero price benefit to the format, as demand would quickly outstrip the addition of 13,000 cards. As old school has shown us, demand for mint CE might overtake demand for beat power/duals.

I agree with you, I just don’t think it will help that much, and might even drive prices higher.

Wow, if there is an EDH flusterstorm battle with this on the table, I might have to quit magic.

[Or maybe they will start printing instant/sorcery tokens]