The Vintage Championship- 1994 (WITH ACTUAL DECKSLISTS): FINALIZED and UPDATED

(the original thread: http://www.archive.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=47827.0)

So I started this project on the old drain about a year ago. I've always had a passion for this event, and probably re-read Zak Dolan's diary in the Duelist 100 times. My friends and I even replayed the Zak vs Bertrand matches for fun (Pro Tip: take Bertrand's deck). However, I always wondered about the other two decks that day. They were published in the corners of the internet, but didn't seem to match the stories and other evidence of the day. After a year of back and forth, inspecting photos, and talking to other people, I finally think I have gotten close to the actual deckslists from that event (and I am putting it aside if someone else wants to take it up). Most of the decklists on the internet seem to be incorrect (even the one for Bertrand on Wizard’s website), so after some research here is how it actually went down.

WE’VE MADE CONTACT WITH ALL FOUR PLAYERS (though 20yr old memories are hazy).

The early roadblocks to the project:

Zak and Bertrand remember Dominic playing Juzam Djinn, and Bertrand remembers Cyrille playing a zoo style deck.
Zak claims Dominic also played Dark Ritual with Gloom, Tsunami, Chaos Orb, Flashfires in the sideboard. Dominic said Zak was confusing his deck with the other Frenchman from the quarterfinals (who did play Juzam, Dark Ritual).
Cyrille is reported to have lost his third game to Bertand because he drew Diamond Valley as his only land.
Cyrille is also reported to have played a deck very similar to Bertrand's (Shivans for Serendibs, and with Strip Mines)

Notes:
Bertrand played 61 cards (Sylvan Library and Chaos Orb), in the event that he had to rip up a Chaos Orb (rumored to be possible) and could still finish with 60 cards.

Cyrille played ~62 cards, and 1 Diamond Valley. The reason for the Diamond Valley, was on that day, the Head Judge ruled you couldn’t go below zero life. So with a Diamond Valley in play, your opponent could attack with everything, you could take it, then sacrifice a Llanowar to Diamond Valley and then still be alive (at 1 life) and counter-attack for the win. Super crucial to a lot of his matches Cyrille claimed, but he ultimately lost in the semis when he drew it as his only land (and back then you couldn’t mulligan unless you had a “no-land” hand).

The decks below also conform to the photos from that day (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/226captions). The only mystery is Zak’s claim that Dominic was playing Juzam (from the Zak Dolan diary), but Dominic says he is confusing Dominic with his quarter-finals opponent.

ALL FOUR DECKS (for the first time in internet accurate history!)

Zak Dolan: FIRST PLACE

1 Clone
2 Old Man of the Sea
1 Time Elemental
1 Vesuvan Doppleganger
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Ley Druid
4 Serra Angel
1 Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Armageddon
1 Wrath of God
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mana Drain
1 Siren’s Call
2 Disenchant
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Black Lotus
1 Black Vise
1 Howling Mine
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Ivory Tower
1 Mana Vault
2 Meekstone
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Winter Orb
1 Control Magic
2 Stasis
1 Kismet
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Strip Mine

Sideboard:
1 Kismet
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Diamond Valley
1 Floral Spuzzem
1 Magical Hack
1 Presence of the Master
1 Sleight of Mind
1 Chaos Orb
1 Copy Artifact
1 In the Eye of Chaos
2 Karma
1 Power Sink
1 Reverse Damage
1 Winter Blast
[ no notes, Zak explains this deck pretty thoroughly in his diary for the Duelist]

Bertrand Lestree- 2ND PLACE

3 Argothian Pixies
4 Kird Ape
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Whirling Dervish
4 Fireball
4 Chain Lightning
1 Channel
1 Time Walk
1 Regrowth
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Psionic Blast
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Chaos Orb
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Icy Manipulator
1 Control Magic
1 Sylvan Library (not in online decklists- but in the report)
2 City of Brass
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
4 Tropical Island
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Control Magic
3 Disintegrate
1 Forcefield
4 Serendib Efreet
1 City in a Bottle
1 Flashfires
2 Lifeforce
2 Tsunami
[Bertrand regrets not playing Strip Mine]

Cyrille de Foucaud 3RD/4TH (CONFIRMED BY CYRILLE)

1 Berserk
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Channel
1 Erhnam Djinn
3 Giant Growth
1 Regrowth
2 Disintegrate
3 Fireball
1 Granite Gargoyle
4 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Shivan Dragon
1 Uthden Troll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Power Sink
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
3 Serendib Efreet
1 Black Lotus
1 Chaos Orb
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Bayou
2 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Diamond Valley
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
4 Tropical Island
4 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
2 Crumble
1 Tranquility
2 Tsunami
2 Whirling Dervish
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Mind Twist
3 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Bartel Runeaxe
[He is confident he could have won if he had cut down to 60 cards, and bemoans some of his creature choices. He said he was young and played "cards he liked."]

Dominic Symens (3RD/4TH) (CONFIRMED BY DOMINIC)

3 Badlands
3 Bayou
2 City of Brass
4 Taiga
3 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
1 Aladdin
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kird Ape
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Chain Lightning
1 Channel
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Fireball
1 Fork
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Mind Twist
1 Regrowth
1 Time Walk
2 Animate Dead
1 Black Lotus
1 Chaos Orb
3 Juggernaut
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard:
3 Jade Statue
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Mox Pearl
2 Psionic Blast
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spinal Villian
2 Tranquility

[ The Jade Statues were to exchange them for the Juggrnauts if he saw bolts or Wrath of God.]

**Thanks to all who helped in the old thread ( @sodoyouwearacape, @JACO and Carl Devos, and of course Zak, Bertrand, Cyrille, and Dominic!

And while there are still some differences, the originator of this project can be found here (Carl):
http://zongo.be/magic/deck/world.php

As this posting is still not 100% accurate, it’s as close as I will be able to take it. If someone else wants to take over the reigns, I’m fine!!**

My only regret is that the Juzam deck didn't make it to the Semi-Finals. Would have liked to have run the four deck gauntlet with a little more variety.

I'm just a little sad because a lot of the pros on VSL used to be players that I thoroughly enjoyed, respected, and even supported, but after this last season, and all the ancillary whining and championing, I can no longer look at them the same way again. I'm not even mad about the restriction, I'm mad about how it went down, the speed of it going down, and the lack of rationale.

It might not be fair or unbiased, but it's true. I have no interest in their careers or thoughts for now. Fallen heroes rarely come back for me. And it further fuels my disdain for the Twitterverse we all live in now, where a provocative 140 character text spoken in Absolutes is more impactful than a five paragraph reasoned response.

[First of all, this post is not meant to raise your blood pressure or cause you to reply in hasted hate. Just an open discussion on the repercussions of restricting an iconic card, and why I (nobody of any particular power), think we shouldn't].

We're all tired of B&R discussions, so I thought I would approach one from a different perspective. I've done a lot of thinking about the current Vintage format. I personally don't have a ton of issues with it, but it does seem like the worries of "critical mass" are becoming a little more pronounced.

I think there are a handful of different player types in Vintage.
1.) Some players look at the cards as nothing more than text, numbers, and ratios. To them, cards are nothing more than a variable to put into a formula.
2.) Some players hold older cards in reverence. They care about the types of borders, the art, the history, and maybe even the prominence of certain cards.
3.) Some players, maybe players who began online, might consider all cards equal. To them restricting a Paradox Outcome is no different than restricting a Bazaar of Baghdad.
4.) Some players only care about the variety of decks in the format.
5.) Some players want a format (and decks) that allow them to leverage their skill to a great degree.
6.) Some players care about a "balanced format" (with varying definitions of such)
7.) Some players might only care about their pet deck and its viability.

Even in competitive Vintage, there are plenty of Johnnys and Timmys among the Spikes, so it is hard to keep everyone happy.

Relationships
My issue with restricting Workshop is I think that older cards should be preserved as much as possible. My favorite aspect of Vintage is the ability to form long-term relationships and experience with the same cards.

From an intrinsic perspective, Workshop is no different than a Ballista, but from a historical perspective, a new card like Ballista has no long-term value, is too new for players to form a relationship with, and as a new printing, is a way for Wizards to test limits, without upsetting the player base. Many players will disagree with this, but I'd rather restrict multiple cards and keep the Workshop engine in place, than preserve the existence of cards like Hangarback, Ballista, etc.

I know many people will quote the cost of the card, but I don't feel like that should be a primary determinant.

Others will claim of an exodus of shops players, and this is a real threat, and while I don't think the DCI should be held hostage, losing any % of Vintage players is not something to ignore either. Especially these days, as the re-buy in for paper vintage is so impossibly high.

I do think that older, iconic cards should be held to a much higher standard. Restricting Workshop, in my opinion, is akin to restricting FoW or banning Ancestral Recall.

Flavor
People claim that adding a City of Shadows, or reworking your mana will nullify this restriction, but I don't think that's the case. Workshop decks (currently) have zero manipulation. Without playing Expedition Map, or something similar, seeing your singleton Workshop will be a rare event and will take a ton of flavor out of the deck. I personally bemoan the amount of "new frame" cards in shops decks as it is, this is not a deck that has stayed consistent over the last few years and has gotten more and more modern. To essentially remove an Antiquities card from the deck, takes a ton of the flavor out of Vintage. Much like Mana Confluence replacing City of Brass. But the flavor argument is a weak one, so that one doesn't bother me as much.

Frequency
Blue players often forget that due to manipulation, it's not uncommon for them to see an Ancestral and/or TimeWalk multiple times a match. With a single Workshop, seeing it once during a match might be an cause for celebration.

I know we've been talking about Critical Mass in Vintage for years and years. It appears that Vintage decks have pretty arrived a that point (interestingly enough blue and shops at the same time). There is no correct answer to what is the proper way to guide the future of Vintage. Some people are okay with it turning into Standard/Legacy with moxes, and others would like it to more resemble Old School. I'm sure thoughts about Workshop probably parallel those players bases.

This isn't meant to be an overly-articulate post, or even a persuasive one. I know everyone has drawn their lines a long time ago, but I do think that some people overlook the importance of Workshop to the Workshop deck. As I said before, this is like restricting FoW or banning Ancestral.

Lynchpin
I don't want to speak for Shops players, but I have spoken to quite a few. Many of them have enjoying playing various Shops builds over the years, and I would guess that most Shops players can stomach the loss of various Shops toys. I can't imagine too many emotional attachments to Ravager, Tangle Wire, Ballista, or even Thorn (as long as the deck stays competitive).

However, having to go back to the drawing board and playing a shops deck without shops, is not a journey that many of us would be very interested in. Restricting Mishra's Workshop is not "letting Shops players still play with Shops". Sorry, I just don't agree with that.

I have no problems agreeing that Workshop is an obviously broken card. But I do think it needs to stay in the format as a four of until we've run out of other options.

Note:
This is not meant to be an incendiary post or illicit incendiary responses. We all play Magic for various reasons, all of which are correct.

I'll be honest, I think some of you guys are giving the DCI way too much credit regarding how much consideration they give the Vintage format. And while I feel like decoding their quarterly messages can be fun and entertaining, I think there is almost zero value to be gleaned from the exercise. I wouldn't be surprised if their Friday lunch order received more contemplation than the Vintage format does.

I do believe the DCI has metrics for when a format becomes "unfun." Keep in mind, this is a business. If the games's not fun, people aren't playing as much.

I do believe MTGO provides them with a ton of information that could determine if people are having fun (player frequency patterns, rage quits, game length, chat activity). There is no indication that any of this information is being used, however.

We have circumstantial evidence that prominent players have voiced and been asked their opinion on the format for years. Some of those players have close ties to the DCI. It's not hard to assume they lean on the opinions of prominent players or ex-testers from time to time. I think they've even admitted they don't playtest the format at all, so this is understandable (even though I don't agree with it).

I think it's always been a shoot from the hip exercise for Vintage. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes not.

So I recently started playing MTGO (a little) after a 3yr hiatus (births, toddlers, etc). I was astounded at how far the prices of power and some of the key Vintage cards have fallen ($5 for a mox?).

1.) On one hand, I was super excited that I could pretty much update a few of my older decks to tournament ready for less than $50.
2.) On the other, it was a stark contrast to paper magic, in that it was a horrible financial investment, some cards losing almost 80%+ of their financial value over that time.

Anyway......the purpose of this post was that I had forgotten how much I enjoyed playing MTGO, how easy it is to log on and off, and how great the experience is. I know a lot of people hate the program, mention the bugs, and of course that is justified; but when you think of how complicated a program for Magic must be, I think overall the experience is great. I love the clocks, shuffling and sideboarding are much easier, and all my opponents were nice (or at least neutral). It really is one of the best tools for getting better at playing (in just a few matches, I was able to learn some new things). We all know repetition is the key to Magic play improvement.

I've had friends on the fence about MTGO for years, but I think at current prices they are taking a look. And if someone is already into Legacy, power is extremely affordable (historically speaking).

TDLR; MTGO is historically cheap. It's a great tool for getting better.

Hope to see you soon! I'll be the newbie trying to figure out splitting flusterstorms.

I think the only thing that is "significantly over represented" is the pros influence on the DCI.

Great recap @Brass-Man . I would just echo, that if you are new to shops, you really need to be careful with those lock piece + fragile mana hands. Many a shops player can get locked underneath their own lock pieces (which makes the 1 Workshop, 1 mox + tons of bombs hands a really tough thing to play properly). Exposing your sole workshop in the current meta is super dangerous. Shops is a deck of calculated risk, so you sometimes have to go for it, but it is not uncommon to see almost every deck in the meta
running at least a Strip Mine, and many more also running Wasteland(s). I often think that a well timed Strip Mine can be one of the best cards a Mentor/etc deck can play against shops. Ancient Tomb mana management also presents other challenges.

As you get more experience with the deck, you'll also get a feel for when it's useful to use a Revoker aggressively (blind call, early mox), and when it might be worth holding back a turn or two (Dack, Jace, Voltaic). The "racing with a revoker" plan rarely works and is probably even more hit or miss than the "all in on the land destruction plan (more common when playing Stax)." Those two plans require a lot of experience.

I'm being very broad here, as Shops can actually have a ton more nuance to it than most people realize, but unlike other decks, once you commit to a line, it's a lot harder to deviate than in other decks.

Finally caught up on VSL. WOW! Not only was the diversity of the decks refreshing (even the mentor decks were interesting), but the diversity of the commentary was also great. Awesome to hear all the new voices, and the old familiar friends too! I especially enjoyed the Reid Duke and Paul Reitzl commentary, as it was such an interesting dynamic to have a seasoned pro, asking amateur Vintage questions. It was refreshing to hear him admitting his own limitations- which is rare for magic players. An interesting contrast to the normal authoritative commentary. Their banter was probably really nice for new Vintage viewers being able to watch a pro ask questions that they too might be asking in their head.

Overall, great night! Not sure if it's the new meta or the new blood, but this massive shakeup was awesome.

This is why I absolutely LOVE the clocks in MTGO. It's almost a totally different game. If you want to sit there and do a 10min brainstorm, go for it! If your opponent is taking forever, it only hurts him. I think this is the true advantage of MTGO over paper. In paper, even if you've used less than 10% of the time your opponent has, if time is running out, you'll get a steely glare every time you go "into the tank." I know there is no reasonable way to implement a clock in paper, but it would be so great if they could. I love the subtle difference between "having to beat an opponent" in a certain amount of time, versus a timed match.

It's a tough situation. "Clock inequality" during a paper match becomes totally irrelevant towards the end, and I always feel like it puts one player at a major disadvantage, as previous clock usage is easily forgotten.

So in all honesty, what is it that changed since the 2015 Vintage Championships? I personally consider 2014/2015 to be one of the finest metagames of recent memory.

There was such a depth of choice.

Want to play Oath- you could play normal Oath, Show Oath or Salvagers
Want to play Shops- choose from Stax, Martello, Terra Nova, or even Tiny Robots
Want to play U/R or U/W- You could play Delver, Monastery Mentor, Blood Moon, or Standstill
Want to play control- Thieves, Tinker, Control, etc
Want to play combo- Belcher, Doomsday, TPS, Dark Petition, or Dredge.
And even rogue decks like BUG, WW, Humans were very relevant.
Any one of those decks could top 16 Worlds or win a local tournament (except maybe Belcher

So what happened? How did the meta change so abruptly?

My thoughts:
I think Chalice getting restricted, might have done more harm than good. People moan about x4 Chalice shops, but some players were already starting to cut Chalices right before it got restricted. Chalice penalized the "turbo lifestyle," but also penalized shops with some dead draws, or variance cards.

The power of Monastery Mentor was too new.

The printing of Hangarback took shops players into the dormant area of Ravagers, perfecting the deck. Many players weren't even playing 8 spheres in 2015. Now instead of having some situationally dead cards (Chalice, Tangle Wire), they could be all in on the ground assault.

Lastly (late edit): I also think that during this metagame, there was a foil to each deck. The Rock-Paper-Scissor was in full effect. If you were a shop player, you were not excited about sitting down across from Oath. I think right now, Mentor and Shops are so powerful, they really don't have an enemy deck. Hence the fatigue with the format. If there is any positives to the current Meta, I would venture that "matchup luck" is at an all time low.

Are full results posted anywhere? Any TMD winners?

@lienielsen said in Eternal Weekend 2021:

@botvinik

Yes. $25 for 16 days of unlimited access. Nov 15 - Dec 1

The real question is this going to attract the normal Eternal Weekend crowd? I honestly don’t even recall who/what won last years event. It’s spread across 3 different events. It just doesn’t feel like a Vintage championship if there are 3 winners.

More interestingly, if someone wins this as their second Championship, are they a "two-time Vintage Champion?" If they win two of the three, or one this year and one last year, will they be the first ever two-time champion?

@botvinik Yeah, thanks for the tip. This would be for a local playgroup and we are pretty good about preferring interesting and fun games to outright bloodfests. While there is plenty of degenerousy from time to time, we strive for entertainment over wins, so it works out well. We also do a good job of keeping the "frontrunner" in each game in check.

Your tip is good, so I might consider just going with cards that either have massive (affects everyone) effects, or go with targeted removal or interesting creatures.

thanks for reading!

@brass-man These are some great points. I personally like the five pile mechanic for variety and so the pile doesn't ever "stall." For instance, if there is a Smokestack on top, and nobody wants to play it, then the pile becomes useless. With five piles (or whatever) at least one or two piles will be getting refreshed, and maybe I could even implement a shuffle effect every other turn or something. As for making them castable at anytime, another great choice (especially since Future Sight is my favorite card!), but that might be a Wild Card Commander 2.0 evolution.

Obviously this format works a lot better in 3-5 color commander decks. I like the colorless aspect, but might try colored first to at least try to keep Magic Color Flavor a little bit. Commander mana is so easily fixed, that it sometimes feels like all colorless anyway. I do like the idea of hybrid mana cards though vs mulicolor, that opens things a little.

Agree on ergonomics. I'd likely put wild cards in top loaders or different sleeves.

Lots of great tips and I'll try to give this a whirl at some point. Your advice on card choice is good. I've already experimented a lot with Chaos Magic and it's true. A Fastbond on first turn is interesting, but totally irrelevent turn 5. I think I need to try more for cards that have high utliity like you said, or good situational use. Not just incremental advanatage. That is the main reason for the five piles, so that it's harder for a pile to "stall." A Channel might sit there for 10 turns, but then all of a sudden looks awesome if someone had an Emrakul in hand.

I don't know, Only way to try it is to play, but I always liked the concept of having some card choice outside your deck (like how some people used to have land piles and card piles back in the day).

We've used wish cards in our cube on occasion, and I liked the concept, but it seems less elegant in practice. Having the five piles face up also prevents some of the advantage of knowing the contents of the wild cards beforehand.

Thanks for the tips.

Background: So I always like adding a little chaos or randomness into my multiplayer games. Sometimes it speeds things up, sometimes creates a comeback win, and others times just exposes players to cool, bombastic cards.

Historically we've just had a large stack of bombish cards and we flip them over, one by one, to reveal an effect for that turn (like a Howling Mine, or Fastbond or Abyss). I'm working on something a little more interactive.

Idea: I've always wanted to mess around with a "shared pool, wild card" style multiplayer game. Something where a player could opt not to draw a card, and instead draw a community card.

Basics:

• Normal Commander Style play
• Have five piles in the middle of the table, one for each color. All face down, except top card exposed for each color.
• When each player goes to draw a card, they could instead opt for one of the community cards. Take that card into their hand, the next card below that one is then revealed for the next player (or draw).

Example: I'm facing down a Juggernaut that will kill me next turn. I look over at the community cards and a Disenchant is showing. I take the Disenchant instead of my normal draw for turn and put it into my hand. The card below Disenchant is revealed (it's a Land Tax), and play continues.

Dilemmas:

• Do I do more than five piles? Artifacts seems too useful. Lands could be interesting. Multicolor cards likely would stall on a color combo nobody wants.
• Can you do it for any draw, or only once per turn?
• Should it be five piles categorized by color, or go more random with just five piles (could be 4 blue and 1 white, or 3 red and 2 black, constantly changing as cards get used)

Fun Part:

• Give me some ideas for cards!! Do I go with big play cards like TImeTwister or Wrath of God, or keep it narrow with things like Tithe and Snapcaster Mage.
• Do you like the idea of a lands/artifact/multicolor pile?

@revengeanceful

Agreed. I don't think it's a matter of proxies or even regional support. MTGO essentially has power cards for free, and that still hasn't exploded the format.

I think there was a schism in Vintage around the time of Mentor, and those players that went to Old School, likely aren't coming back.

MTGO made vintage too fast a metagame for the casual players. You can't just pick up a random Vintage deck and jam in a tournament anymore.

I think Vintage kind of hit critical mass, and I'm not sure there is any going back. The best we can hope for is maybe more major events (like Champs) to keep the fire alive.

@blindtherapy

Yeah, this is the first card I’ve seen in awhile that made me immediately go “whoa.., ouch.”

Thank goodness it’s two-sided, so it will at least impede decks (bringing this in as hate) from going off.

Maybe different punishments depending on what color creature equips it?

I mean you could make it tap for:

1G or 1 Colorless

Or do a Dual Land that also taps for colorless.

But yeah, not a lot of upside for them in this direction (at least for the moxes, maybe the duals).

I hate the decision as an adult, but might have loved it as a kid, so maybe it’s the right decision.

I hope it doesn’t become FunkoPop Magic and really wished they had made these separate games (but powered under MTG rule set), but what can you do. I’m sick of complaining with their decisions the last two years (mass secret lairs, banned cards, pushed power, and all the variants). I would have loved to see some of this stuff on slower rollout, but that’s not the world we live in.

I won’t quit, but I’ll probably take a big step back depending how widespread the IP becomes.

If the IP is here and there and doesn't overwhelm the game, I’ll probably learn to accept it like every other decision.

If if becomes Star Wars vs Marvel heroclix, I doubt I’ll maintain interest. I can find infinite exposure to IP everywhere else.