@Islandswamp said:
She's priced right. But the plus one is pretty weak. The minus 2 can do a lot more than people think. Copying oath or tinker targets is kind of win more, but it also would probably immediately win many games. Play black lotus, copy it, make six mana, cast consecrated sphinx, that's a thing.
I think it's a good card. Probably not good enough though.
Why don't you just cast Consecrated Sphinx with Lotus and the 3 mana you used to cast this dude?
@Stormanimagus said:
This whole finals was super disappointing. The decks chosen were just aweful piles of garbage on Eric's side and they were basically just "Shuhei Haterade." These decks give new vintage players no real clue as to what one should take to a large event and as a hatebear/human pilot the first list was, quite frankly, insulting. 4 Cages maindeck and your largest threat of damage being a 3/2 will not fly at a real vintage event.
-Storm
I don't agree at all. Although the matches wasn't the greatest of the season, I think the finals was entertaining, especially the matches where Eric played White Trash. Honestly, if you want to blame anyone, blame Shuhei and not Eric. Eric made a clever choice of creating a White Trash deck that beats the shit out of Oath because Shuhei had been playing Oath in every single match. It was a great metagame choice. I have no idea how many "new vintage players" even watch these games, but I think it's a good thing to let potential new players know that Vintage isn't always only about playing the best spells ever printed but actually to think about the metagame and go from there.
My local playgroup had a small tournament this weekend and I decided to bring a few of the new cards in a 4 color hatebear deck. I never playtested the deck before the tournament so I didn't really know what to expect. There's not really much theory behind the build and I really only just wanted to try out some stuff, so I'm sure it can be improved in various slots. Also note that this is from memory so I might be a card or two off.
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dark Confidant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Containment Priest
1 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Time Walk
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Scrublands
1 Tropical Island
2 Cavern of Souls
Sideboard:
3 Containment Priest
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Mental Misstep
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
1 Illness in the Ranks
2 Nature's Claim
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Trygon Predator
Match 1: Grixis Pyromancer: 2-1 WIN
Game 1: I resolve a turn 1 Thalia and a turn 2 Confidant. He resolves a turn 2 Pyromancer but I Decay it. Turn 4 I play a Sanctum Prelate for 1 and the game is pretty much over.
Game 2: He gets down a turn 1 Pyromancer and I don't find anything to fight back.
Game 3: I play turn 1 Hierarch into turn 2 Leo which gets Bolted. He gets down a Pyromancer which beats down with its token friends for a few turns, but I manage to Vampiric for Illness in the Ranks with Misstep backup. I clean the game up a few turns later.
Match 2: Jeskai Mentor: 1-2 LOSS
Game 1: He gets down a turn 1 Mentor and I have no answers.
Game 2: I don't remember much here, but my path to victory included Sanctum Prelate for 1.
Game 3: This one was pretty close the first many turns and we end up in topdeck mode. He wins when he topdecks Treasure Cruise into Mentor and Time Walk.
Match 3: Oath: 2-0 WIN
Game 1: I know my opponent usually is on Oath so I mulligan to look for Decay, Prelate or Priest. My 5 card hand has Priest so I'm all set. It turns out to be lucky that I mulliganed to find an answer because he leads with turn 1 Oath. I draw Cavern to make my Priest uncounterable. He never finds an answer so I ride my bears to victory.
Game 2: I draw good and keep a hand with Lotus, Prelate, Cage and Priest and I have no trouble winning.
Match 4: Some Storm variant: 2-1 WIN
Game 1: have a slow hand and lose to a turn 2 or 3 kill.
Game 2: I resolve a turn 1 Thalia and a turn 2 Leo. My opponent manages to get rid of Leo but i Demonic for Eidolon and beats him down before he finds another answer.
Game 3: I keep a somewhat sketchy hand which only has Thalia as a thread. My opponent's hand is pretty slow though, and I draw into Confidant which finds me Mindcensor and Vamp which finds me Eidolon.
Match 5: Eldrazi: 1-2 LOSS
Game 1: I face a turn 1 Thought-Knot Seer and turn 2 Reality Smasher.
Game 2: I have a very good hand with Demonic, Nature's Claim and Trygon. However, my opponent locks me out for a few turns and starts beating down with a Thalia 2.0 and I'm close to 0 life when I finally get to resolve my Demonic to find an answer for Thalia 2.0. From here on we get into a topdeck war which I manage to climb out of on top when I draw a Tasigur.
Game 3: My opponent resolves a turn 1 Lodestone which beats me down to 3 life until I manage to Swords it. He plays some more creatures which I manage to take care of as well back I'm always on my back heels this game. He eventually resolves a Reality Smasher which I can't beat.
Overall the deck was really fun and demanding to play. It felt pretty good but lacking a bit of fire power against Mentor and Eldrazi which I feared in advance. It also seems a bit soft to Workshops at least in the maindeck. Sanctum Prelate and Leo were both incredible, but I'm not sure they actually belong in the same deck because of the mana requirements. I only once or twice was mana screwed, but it's hard to tell how much is due to variance. Revoker was very underwhelming and I think it should be replaced with something more powerful, but I'm not really sure what. Perhaps Thalia 2.0 or another Tasigur or even Goyf or Knight of the Reliquary could be possibilities. Mindcensor and Containment Priest could also go to the sideboard or be replaced with something else and more powerful.
@wappla
I don't agree that "Mentor is so omnipresent because best sideboard cards are also white". Mentor is everywhere because it's by far the best creature ever printed.
This card is absolutely nuts and will be restricted for sure.
I assume that Ochoa lost a bet making him play Warping Wail, right?
Cutting dead cards like Saheeli would be a good start.
I have always wondered why nobody played Guttersnipe. The card is awesome. Jori En, Ruin Diver seemed underwhelming/win more to me in the one match we got to watch.
I think this card should be named Clueless Tracker because it's pretty bad.
I want to apologize if I've sounded harsh or condescending in my previous posts, it wasn't my intention to come off that way.
Anyway, I just wanted to appreciate the effort you guys put into this kind of deck, and I really like the theory of going "all human" to make as many spells uncounterable as possible. That said, I'm not sure this type of deck is where you want to be at the moment with all the Mentor and Eldrazi and as important because of these decks all the creature removal floating around at the moment.
I would probably look towards Magus of the Moon right now, but obviously that's a completely different deck.
Cutting dead cards like Saheeli would be a good start.
@Smmenen said:
So, who is going to end up being right on Paradoxical Outcome, me or Kevin?
Who has which opinions?
I think it's gonna see a lot of play at least in the upcoming months. It's very good and I think I was the first to say that this will get restricted. I must admit that I'm not so sure about that now. The builds does seem to have a lot of weaknesses.
On another note. I'll now predict that Kambal, Consul of Allocation will turn out to be the best card from this set. The card is bananas.
I don't think that Liliana is very good if you expect a lot of Pyromancer/Mentor. It's probably decent against Eldrazi and the likes, but Daretti is better.
@5space said:
@Soly said:
I will say, I do reserve the right to change my mind about this probably restrictable card. LOLOLOL.
You got some pretty nasty plays out of it on Cockatrice! That was epic.
Sorry, I know this isn't the right place discuss this, but what Cockatrice server do you guys use? I'm brand new at it.
@L0cke17 said:
So after playing it significantly in testing over the past couple weeks, I'm convinced this card is just insanely good. I would put even money on it appearing in both the vintage and legacy top 8s this year.
In what kind of shell have you had succes with it?
@enderfall said:
@JuzamJim Are you referring to a Turn 1/2 Probe, or any Probe cast at any point of the game? I'd venture that Turn 1/2 Probes are Misstep-ed far more often than not. Of course, context is everything, but sometimes Missteps are more valuable to protect your creatures from Bolt/Plow or to avoid Recall blow-outs, etc. Doesn't mean the card is any less oppressive. Brainstorm and Ponder are restricted and they certainly aren't worthy of misstep all the time.
In my experience turn 1/2 Probes are rarely Misstepped as well (unless the opponent has two Missteps in hand), but I can see that our experiences differ on this matter. I don't think that Probe is the problem. It's a fair card in it self. The problem is Mentor. Pyromancer is good but fair. Mentor is just rediculous and should never have been printed.
@Soly said:
@JuzamJim The fact that it's the 3rd Best unrestricted card in the format? It replaces itself (Young Pezzy and MMentor), is blue (Force of Will), and provides perfect knowledge of your opponents hand is too powerful for it's cost (FREE). I cut all but 1 duress effect in Doomsday because baring your hand just being Bee Aye En Aye En Aye Es, I can sculpt my plays for several turns around what's in your hand.
If it's that good, then how come people rarely Misstep it?
@anyone who wants to restrict Gitaxian Probe: What are the arguments for this?
Oh yeah I know, I thought we were talking about a situation where you wouldn't gain mana by casting this and recasting your artifacts.
