There's an important word missing from this card, though, that gives its functionality in many common situations: Draw. This is not card draw so it sidesteps effects like leopold and narset, parter of veils (and the no-longer played uba mask).
It will see play - maybe not a lot. But I think early on it will appear in a few decks.
A Shops deck with only 1 Workshop is still a Shops deck. Just like a Gush deck with only 1 Gush still embodies the spirit of a Gush deck. It would want to play Wastelands, City of Traitors, Crystal Vein, some fast artifact mana and just power out Spheres and Lodestone Golems. If you recall the mtgo classic format, all the best decks were just worse versions of all the current vintage decks. (Classic didn't have the entire Vintage cardpool such as power) No matter how you slice it -- Null Rod or Eldrazi or whatever, its still the Shops deck.
Technically, that is true but this won't happen. Reason is that you forget something in that analysis : shop deck are running about 40 artifacts because because 4 workshops make it worth it. Now if you have only 1 workshop and no (or few) way to tutor it would you still want to play that many artifacts ? Would not you want to add some color and get all nice effects that brown is missing ?
Ultimately, you will play a whatever-deck with a more than average number of artifacts to still get nice use of the singleton workshop (could be for exemple some kind of turbo-tezz or something like the 5C shop decks that used to be played). I am not sure if such decks would be still shop decks.
On the other hand, singleton Bazar does weaken Dredge decks but does not kill them : They are called dredge decks not bazar decks ... they loose their best tool but not their reason of being.
Sounds like you've never been run over by shops when they dont draw workshop and just draw 1 of multiple sol lands and any of their thousand or so 2 drops.
@khahan Yeah, Type 4 was the inspiration for this format, but instead of drafting decks, you play with one shared library and grave, which makes for REALLY fun interactions/play lines and makes ungodly-awful cards like "Whisk Away" into a brutal turn of fortunes. The haymaker aspect of Type 4 is intact, but the shared zones really makes this format amazing.
Maybe its regional. The t4 we played in my area was what you are describing - shared library, shared graveyard, infinite mana. Just 1 spell per turn per person seems to be the main difference.
I have to agree with Chubbyrain on being wary of a rules based list for B&R. For one, every single time a rule is created you have:
- unintended consequences - things you didn't intend for the rule to cover that get covered.
- abuse - hedging the rules, bending the rules, circumventing the rules
- corner cases - things that just dont fit nicely into the rules but still need addressed.
- more rules - typically to deal with issues #1and #3. And of course when a new rule is made, we circle back to the top of the list.
@Khahan players are leaving older formats in paper due to accessability of cards. While proxy events are fine in conceptz its a novelty that wears off. Many players who have an interest in learning the format will play a few times with the proxy deck, then move on once they realise they'll never be able to afford the actual cards.
The #1 problem killing paper magic for old formats has always been and will always be the reserve list.
Except that I'm seeing a decline in attendance. Meaning people who used to come, therefore they have access to cards, are no longer coming. The reserve list is blocking new people from getting into the format and definitely is a contributing factor. But its one we can do nothing about.
Players with access who have played paper but move to online - that is something we may be able to do something about.
I agree with you 100% that the reserve list is a major problem. Its just a different problem than I'm asking about.
Before the shutdown, Deal Me in Games was discussing utilizing its own B&R list. We interviewed a handful of local players for their thoughts on a B&r list as well as having the event organizer (myself) and event sponsor (deal me in's owner) submit lists. Then compiled a B&r list which we were discussing utilizing for our 2020 T1 events. If we ever get back up and running, we revisit doing this.
But to be honest, regardless of altering the B&R and which stores B&r to use etc, I wonder just how much longer paper vintage has to live. I don't think its a 'sky is falling' moment to declare that paper vintage was on life support. And now with a multi-month shut down of shops and events and potentially a year off from the biggest vintage events each year, I'd have to say that somebody's hand is on the plug.
I've supported Vintage since the early 2000's when I got CCG to start up their tournaments which became the blue bell events. I took a break from magic and when I came back I got Deal Me In to start up a vintage series. I'll always support it as long as there's a player base. But over the years I've seen the player base dwindle down to next to nothing.
So the question shouldn't be what B&r list should we use. The question SHOULD be, what can we do to bring paper vintage players back? I'd love to hear some answers from members like chubby and brianpk who have migrated to online as their primary focus. What would it take to get you guys and others who have moved away from paper vintage back?
We had 4 show up for some fun and games at the December vintage event. They did a round robin against each other with Evan, Zach and Ryan going 2-1 and Dean going 0-3.
With those results in the final standings for the 2019 Deal Me In Games are as follows:
On behalf of Jason K (aka Blood) at Deal Me In Games I'd like to thank everybody who took part in our 2019 Vintage events. With the players, there really is nothing going on. We appreciate your continued support.
And now I'd like to congratulated our 2019 top 8 point earners who will receive seats at the 2019 Invitational series. They are, in order of finish with point totals:
- Joe Brennan 111
2 Zach Dobbin 100
3 Dean Harris 98
4 Greg Hoover 88
5 Ryan McKinney 80
6 Evan Hundertmark 71
7 Nick DiJohn 60
8 Stephen Harvey 56
Due to scheduling conflicts we do not have a set date for the first event of the 2020 series or the 2019 top 8 invitational. More information on this will be coming.Deal Me In Games 2019 point totals
The final event for Deal Me In Games 2019 Invitational series is fast approaching. Sunday Dec 8 at Noon at Deal Me in Games in Boyertown.
Starting at NOON on Sunday, December 8 we have our monthly store tournament.
Jason at Deal Me In Games
15 play test T1 tournament (Vintage for you young 'uns)
127 East Philadelphia Ave
Boyertown, PA 19512
Sunday Dec 8 at 12 Noon
So we can get together and have fun playing Magic the Gathering in its best format ever for some kickass prizes. ***
PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING CHANGES TO PRIZES
***Starting with our January tournament, all prize payouts will be in cash. That's right, you walk in with cash for an entry fee and cards to play and walk out with cold hard cash in hand. Payouts will be based on attendance. The entry fee remains at $35.
Because this is a cash payout, please bring cash for the entry fee.
As always, leave some time after the event for dinner and some drinks. Come join our vintage community.
Also you can earn more points towards our year end invitational. Every round you play in you earn:
3 points for a win
2 points for a draw
1 point for a loss
At the end of the season the 8 players with the most points get invited to a special event in January to duke it out for title of store Champion. Prizes in the past years have included multiple duals (underground sea was our 1st place prize in 2017 and 2nd place in 2018) and a Mishra's Workshop (2018 store champion prize)
Year to date Standings updated to include our November event are below:
This means we have a current top 8 of:
- Joe Brennan 111
- Dean Harris 95
- Zach Dobbin 91
- Greg Hoover 88
- Ryan McKinney 73
- Evan Hundertmark 64
- Nicholas DiJohn 60
- Stephen Harvey 56
We have a potential battle for the last top 8 spot or 2 with Josh Barkon, Chuck Greb and Stephen Ganter in striking distance.
@chubbyrain said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:
I would love to hear a justification for Workshops and Bazaar remaining legal that doesn’t involve “feelings” because every objective measure seems rather clear...
I would also encourage you to look at qualitative research as you and many others don’t seem so understand that feelings and experiences have value in many professions and can be the basis for decisions.
Reading back I dont think I was as clear as I intended to be - it sounded good in my head but I think it didn't translate as well as I meant to (sorry, its difficult to think straight when your wife wont stop chattering to you as you type). Feelings should not be the only or even the main focus of reasons. It can be a part of the decision making process. Or more to the point it could be the trigger that starts a hard look at the decision making process. But too many times people come out and all they can do is say, "I dont like playing against this. Its unfun for me. "
Well that's great. But its a lot of fun for me and you want to take away my toy just because. My point is that the B&R list should NOT work like that. If enough people come out and say, "Its unfun," then its time to take a closer look at some hard data. There are other reasons to look at hard data as well.
Feelings are a personalized agenda and unfortunately for people who want to use feelings to stump for their B&R additions, the list is a community list, not a personal list.
What this card does for dredge is turn a mull to 1 into a mull to 6 as far as finding bazaar goes. Its green to pitch to FoV which is a big plus. I think if it didn't have both of those properties it wouldnt be considered. But since it has both, its worth looking at.
@mike-noble said in August 26, 2019 Banned and Restricted Announcement:
I just thought that this part right here was worth repeating.
Sadly the choice isn't between objective versus subjective. It's between the preferences of the DCI versus the preferences of the DCI combined with information from the peanut gallery.
Anyone that bemoans "the thing I like is gone/disappearing" should talk to a TnT/Oshawa Stompy player about how Survival didn't have any real metagame power for 15 years. Any format that receives new printings will cycle between what an individual player likes and what they don't like.
I dont bemoan, "the thing I like is disappearing" or even, "the thing I dont like is staying." I bemoan the people who use anecdotal evidence from personal experience only to stump for restrictions and changes. That is how I interpret that statement I quoted. Great, you dont like it. You dont like playing against it. Others dont mind playing against it and some other actually enjoy playing it. We should not have a format B&R list decision based on "I feel. . ."
My concern as a longtime Vintage player is that some of the voices about their preferences for the format will over shadow those that enjoy playing the format is a different way
I just thought that this part right here was worth repeating.